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Porkchop_express
Trad climber
Southwest for the winter
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Jan 27, 2012 - 03:04pm PT
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My very first post on ST was the Growing Up thread. I am about as qualified to post on this topic as I was on that-- (although I am surprised not to have seen more comparisons between the two arguments since they seem to be a direct inversion of each other)
If I were K&K I don't think I would have chopped the route. If I were Maestri I don't think I would have bolted the route in the first place either though. When I go to climb something, small or large, I look at what's there and then go up or not according to what I feel capable of.
If someone changes what's "there" and adds or subtracts from it to suit their own level, raising the bar or lowering it according to their ability that's on them. I have accepted that there are many mountains I will never climb no matter how strong I get.
The mountain is fundamentally unchanged. The devices and fixtures on it have changed--and those are not what give significance to a mountain. After reading this thread, that is the conclusion I have come to. Someday I hope to climb in Patagonia. If I am not up to climbing whatever routes are on CT at that time, then I will find something else to climb and it will still be a fantastic experience.
Steve Richert
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BlackSpider
Ice climber
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Jan 27, 2012 - 03:10pm PT
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My very first post on ST was the Growing Up thread. I am about as qualified to post on this topic as I was on that-- (although I am surprised not to have seen more comparisons between the two arguments since they seem to be a direct inversion of each other)
I do find it interesting that one of the biggest critics of that route is also one of the biggest critics of the chopping here. I guess I'm not seeing what makes a 5.9 A0 route bolted on "lead" (if one can call it that) with 400 bolts drilled using a gas-powered compressor more worthy of defending than a 5.13+ mostly-free route (that has a tiny bit of A0) bolted on rappel using hand drills with a moderate number of bolts.
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enzolino
climber
Galgenen, Switzerland
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Jan 27, 2012 - 03:16pm PT
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The Prophet has spoken:
Regarding similar acts taking place elsewhere; lets not forget the magnitude of Maestri's aberration. If there are similar examples in other places I think it would be good if those route were erased. Even without arriving at that extreme I would love to see routes like the Salathe Wall returned to its original condition, to its 7 or 9 original bolts.
Let's go and let's spread His gospel ...
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adnix
Big Wall climber
Finland
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Jan 27, 2012 - 03:38pm PT
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The comparisions between Yosemite and Cerro Torre are pointless. The first one is blessed with good weather and you can fix a top rope on any of the walls if you wish. The latter is one of the wildest peaks on the planet with no easy way up. Tell me, which of the El Cap routes have 500+ bolts on them?
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Jan 27, 2012 - 03:43pm PT
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Whew. Glad you were talking to ElCap cause man you are a monster. I would have soiled myself. Anybody got a handiwipe? heehee.
I am doing well and progressing in spite of some unfortunate setbacks.
The prognosis looks great though. Coz, if you get to the point of an ACDF and want to ask questions for perspective I am at your service amytime.
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MH2
climber
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Jan 27, 2012 - 03:52pm PT
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from Rolo's Climb interview
I am often that person, shouting at the couch
YES! I too shout at the couch, from the couch, and collect change from under the cushions! What unites is more than what separates us.
Please everyone leave Cerro Torre as it is, now. What's done is done and can't be undone, which is what I think of the Maestri bolting episode, too. There are too many people in this game, today, but that mountain is better when less accessible whatever the majority opinion may be.
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Kimbo
Trad climber
seattle
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Jan 27, 2012 - 03:55pm PT
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Rolo quote:
"Some of the townspeople, largely non-climbers, believe they should be the ones deciding what happens up on the hills. They seem to forget that a self-regulating international community of ‘locals’ has been visiting these mountains year in year out since the 1930s. To me their reaction is not unlike the reaction of an ignorant football fan.
this reeks of arrogance. discount the argentinians in their own country.
classy.
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Kimbo
Trad climber
seattle
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Jan 27, 2012 - 04:00pm PT
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The comparisions between Yosemite and Cerro Torre are pointless. The first one is blessed with good weather and you can fix a top rope on any of the walls if you wish. The latter is one of the wildest peaks on the planet with no easy way up. Tell me, which of the El Cap routes have 500+ bolts on them?
no hei, soumalainen! ei asia oo vaan bolt-countissa kiinni.
mutta on eri asia: mutta multa tuntuu etta boltit ois pitanyt jattaa.
heh, soumalainen.
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enzolino
climber
Galgenen, Switzerland
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Jan 27, 2012 - 04:01pm PT
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this reeks of arrogance. discount the argentinians in their own country!
classy. Are you kidding?
Mountains belong only to climbers ...
Only climbers love mountains ...
Ah ... except Maestri ... he is THE EVIL!!!
Sometimes, when I read Rolo's statements, comes to my mind the story of that guy who thought that everybody else was driving in the wrong direction ...
Like in El Chalten ... he and Haley ... alone ... to support K&K ... how come all the others don't understand they are wrong???
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Kinobi
climber
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Jan 27, 2012 - 04:06pm PT
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Ciao,
I read Garibotti's interview and I have decided to ask help to all the community of climbers. I got a very good tip from Konrad Anker's post: they removed something, but the chinese goverment forced them to bring it back.
I will contact between Sunday and Tuesday all the sponsors of K&K and the future trade show for outdoor products to be held in Munich, Germany. Can anybody from US contact them too?
I will ask their sponsors (and to websites and magazines) to send a mutual letter to the police station of El Chalten to ban K&K any further climbing in Argentina till they restore the Maestri's Route to its original (after Maestri's ascent) state. I believe such a high visibily action, will be good for sponsors too.
After that, I will ask their sponsors to make a poll (election) among climbers, to decide if K&K are allow to clean the route AGAIN. I am sure if removal will be approved, Mr Rolando Garibotti will volunteer. In any case, if removal will be approved, Mr Rolando Garibotti must be sent there anyhow to check out all is done properly.
Best,
E
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Kinobi
climber
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Jan 27, 2012 - 04:14pm PT
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With Reference too:
"Rolo quote:
"Some of the townspeople, largely non-climbers, believe they should be the ones deciding what happens up on the hills. They seem to forget that a self-regulating international community of ‘locals’ has been visiting these mountains year in year out since the 1930s. To me their reaction is not unlike the reaction of an ignorant football fan.
this reeks of arrogance. discount the argentinians in their own country.
classy."
As far as I know, Mr Garibotti has USA and Argentinia's Passport. I am not sure about Italians' one. For sure, he got a prize from our Republic.
http://www.quirinale.it/elementi/DettaglioOnorificenze.aspx?decorato=301230
Best,
E
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Kimbo
Trad climber
seattle
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Jan 27, 2012 - 04:15pm PT
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//they removed something, but the chinese goverment forced them to bring it back.
I will contact between Sunday and Tuesday all the sponsors of K&K and the future trade show for outdoor products to be held in Munich, Germany. Can anybody from US contact them too?
I will ask their sponsors (and to websites and magazines) to send a mutual letter to the police station of El Chalten to ban K&K any further climbing in Argentina till they restore the Maestri's Route to its original (after Maestri's ascent) state. I believe such a high visibily action, will be good for sponsors too. //
i kinda like it. i did contact sponsors already, but not with restoration in mind....
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BlackSpider
Ice climber
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Jan 27, 2012 - 04:16pm PT
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Kinobi: good luck with that. Don't cry too hard when it doesn't happen.
I just bought a new jacket from Arc'teryx (a model that Jason Kruk helped design and test) and told them specifically I bought it because I support Jason's climbing and his actions.
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Kinobi
climber
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Jan 27, 2012 - 04:18pm PT
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@Blackspider:
Even among Arcteryx they couldn't' agree too much. See Facebook. May be the "EASY AID CLIMBING" show so-so knowledge, but still decent answer.
Hi Emanuele,
Arc'teryx Equipment commented on their Wall post.
Arc'teryx Equipment wrote: "“The tribes will always remain too polarized to reach a common ground.”
Jason Kruk’s statement on his recent brilliant climb of Cerro Torre's Southeast Ridge.
Arc’teryx is a collective of individuals, each with their own opinion. Those opinions are split down the middle: some of us cherish the idea of the historical gear left on the route and an easy aid line to the summit, while others of us believe in progress and pushing climbing standards in the mountains.
Jason is an ambassador for our company, Arc’teryx. Whether you, or even we, believe his actions were right or wrong, we continue to support him as a talented and accomplished climber."
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ezy
Mountain climber
Italy
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Jan 27, 2012 - 04:40pm PT
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Pataclimb's home page
!!!W ZAPATA, CABRONES!!!!
bravo a Kinobi e Enzolino, fin troppo eroici :D
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adnix
Big Wall climber
Finland
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Jan 27, 2012 - 05:07pm PT
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Kimbo, rolo is Argentinean. It's not like some foreigner would be bashing the locals.
Also, what comes to the vote in 2007, it was really only a handfull of climbers who just happenened to be in the village at that time. It was like someone would randomly poll the first 40 people on the streets of Seattle and elect the US president based on those votes.For example, we were camping in Rio Blanco and we heard about it afterwards. After that time the situation is also different. Opinions of back then are not current.
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Kimbo
Trad climber
seattle
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Jan 27, 2012 - 07:03pm PT
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no terve teille kahelle!
nyt loppu minun kirjoittelu. tarpeeks on tarpeeks!
Hyvaa vointia teille.
Thanks everyone for participating and reaching consensus:)
Good health and happiness to all, and arrivaderci.
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Kinobi
climber
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Jan 28, 2012 - 02:48am PT
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OT "Putanesca" may be Italian Sounding.
But Spelling is wrong in original language.
Anyway, ask Garibotti the correct spelling, he knows how to change it.
Best,
E
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enzolino
climber
Galgenen, Switzerland
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Jan 28, 2012 - 03:06am PT
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I have to recognize something of Garibotti's fanatism.
He is consistent.
No Rolando.
Now he wishes that the same style used on the Compressor's route will be applied for other bolt ladders of the world.
Chapeau
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Wildincognito
Ice climber
Eastside
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Jan 28, 2012 - 03:36am PT
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WTF
This is the new justification for an elitist attitude. Why the hell did you leave anything!!! Too weak to finish the job??? Not cool men (boys)?!. At least HE claimed (climbed) to finish the job/ you just climbed (claimed) to leave it undone. Weak ass shit!!! Learn how to chop. If it's worth doing- it's worth doing right. Now someone has to fix this crap--- one way or another.
Nice summit post (pic). Did you ever read Galen Rowell's article. Way better perspective from the summit. Think twice... cut once!!!
At least no one died... I hope I can still say that 20 years from now.
Oh yeah!!!
You're gonna die...
p.s. " in the end, the king and the pawn end up in the same box"
(edit) as the saying goes
"in the game of chess"
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