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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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You believe that initially, captive's were asked to cooperate nicely, and only when they refused was torture employed.
This to you, is the way it all went down, and that torture was justified.
Yeah, probably. But I have no facts. Same as you. I'm trying to use logic.
Be nice, ask questions, keep doing that, then get increasingly more 'enhanced' in the techniques.
They are pros. You and I are not.
Neocons are Republicans that put money over country. Profits. They are willing to push aside traditional conservative ideals for 'their' agenda. Which is usually money and/or power.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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We would never torture or do worse would we? (sarcasm)
Don't ever forget Camp "NO" . . .
These kinds of images make me cry. What have we become?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Torture is a crime.
I guess the question is how torture if defined. Do I want my country to water-board people if they deem it necessary for national security?
You betcha. Do you realize what they were able to stop by WBing KSM???
Also, what is the preferred method of dealing with these rat-f*#kers;
1.Waterboarding after capture to extract beta.
2.Violating a countrie's airspace with elite commandos to assasinate one of their citizens.
I say, all of the above. Just get it done.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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"Torture is a crime."
I guess the question is how torture if defined. Do I want my country to water-board people if they deem it necessary for national security?
You betcha. Do you realize what they were able to stop by WBing KSM???
Also, what is the preferred method of dealing with these rat-f*#kers;
1.Waterboarding after capture to extract beta.
2.Violating a countrie's airspace with elite commandos to assasinate one of their citizens.
I say, all of the above. Just get it done.
Bluering,
You've lost it. You have no moral conscience or compass.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Klimmer, it is you who has no moral compass. Have you seen this?
DO NOT WATCH THIS IF YOU ARE SQUEAMISH!!! GRAPHIC!!!
http://barenakedislam.wordpress.com/2009/06/26/american-nick-bergs-beheading-warning-graphic-images/
Is that torture??
KSM is alive ad well. He had water poured over his f*#king face. Nick Berg had his head cut off!!!! Slowly!
We are better than them. But sometimes we have to play mean. Even then, we use care.
The people that would kill your family have no such care. In fact, then intend to kill you and inflict as much pain as possible.
THEY are evil. We fight for the good.
EDIT: Crowley, they had at least one plot prevented. L.A. Skyscrapers.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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See my edit above...and yeah, I realize all the Media Matters groups try to dispute it.
Do you realize this was the planner behind 9/11??? He's gonna talk, one way or another...
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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I say, let's put KSM on trial in a public venue.
Let the chips fall where they may.. :)
Well, why didn't Peace Prize Boy do that with OBL as well? I mean, after all, isn't EVERYBODY entitled to a fair trial? Instead of 2 .45 slugs to the face?
Weak.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Let's begin these trials, and televise the entire affair... :)
Because he's gonna spout the typical Klimmer-crap about American injustice (as he sits though American justice) and oppression (Sharia??) and otherwise show-boat Islamic jihad.
Throw him away, he's garbage. Lock him up for life if he's deemed unworthy of a firing squad. And that firing squad should be Moms and Dads of those who died.
Televise that!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Matt, let me explain to you that this man devised a plan (that was approved at the top) to take planes bearing innocent civilians and slam them into heavily populated buildings TO KILL AS MANY PEOPLE AS POSSIBLE.
We, as a kind nation, usually show restraint and reason. But this attack upon innocent people was too much. HE TARGETED INNOCENT PEOPLE.
And I'm supposed to watch him on trial? One bullet. That is the judge, jury, and verdict...
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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this man devised a plan (that was approved at the top)
It's all heresay from news, but it appears valid,
Asking about 'proof' about classified stuff seems to be your new fence-sitting position.
It all makes sense though. Especially with him squealing out beta about hte ops. Seems to confirm it.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Bluering,
You are failing from the get go.
9-11 wasn't accomplished by terrorists alone. At the most they were used as patsies. They were made-up bogeymen, fall guys. The real criminals responsible for masterminding 9-11, getting the military to stand-down, play all the War Games on 9-11, and then make-up a sham 9-11 Commission that white-washed 9-11, and that continue to prevent any follow-up official investigation are still at large. 9-11 has to be investigated officially. It never was. So how can you say that the ones they trotted out within a short amount of time after 9-11 are the ones who really did and were able to pull off 9-11? You can't.
You will be met with the same justice and/or lack of mercy as you do to others on Judgement Day.
Torture, killing, assassinations, and murder is wrong. On both sides, it doesn't matter who is doing it. Of course they are wrong to do those immoral and brutal acts just as we are to ever do them, or to do them back.
We are not living under "An Eye for an Eye," OT law. Besides, most people don't understand the truth of that. You have to know Hebrew and look into the Jewish commentaries regarding what it meant. It meant monetary payment equal to the crime for a just restitution. The monetary value of an eye for a eye lost. KJV of the bible didn't translate that perfectly.
We are a Country with a Constitution. We are a Country of Laws. Everyone deserves their day in court. Even those set against us and our enemies. Justice should be met out fairly and equitably. No sham, corrupt military tribunals. Justice must be met out equitably and in full sunshine.
I do not believe in Capital Punishment, and The Good Book does not either. GOD is the final judge. We aren't. Vengeance is GOD's not ours.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Trials? We don't need no steeeenking TRIALS!
Hey, idiot, do you want to try everybody in a war? You're a f*#king idiot. Some people need to be shot on sight! It's a f*#king war, man!!!!
You sit there in you little deluded liberal world, ya know why??? Because ass-kickers are killing people before they get to you.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Klimmer wrote: I do not believe in Capital Punishment, and The Good Book does not either. GOD is the final judge. We aren't. Vengeance is GOD's not ours.
Vengeance is a human trait...not a godly one.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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constant aggressive belligerence
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Bob wrote:
Klimmer wrote: I do not believe in Capital Punishment, and The Good Book does not either. GOD is the final judge. We aren't. Vengeance is GOD's not ours.
Vengeance is a human trait...not a godly one.
Actually just the other way around. It shouldn't be a human trait because we don't have omnipotent knowledge, but GOD does. We do not deserve this kind of power. It isn't ours. We are human and often make mistakes in our judgement.
That is why GOD reserves vengeance for himself only. He is omnipotent and his judgement is true.
Romans 12:19 (KJV, NT)
Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but [rather] give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance [is] mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
Deuteronomy 32:35 (KJV, OT)
To me [belongeth] vengeance, and recompence; their foot shall slide in [due] time: for the day of their calamity [is] at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste.
And many more relevant verses . . .
http://bible.cc/deuteronomy/32-35.htm
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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You like Deuteronomy, Klimmer?
Seeing as how you quote him.
Ever "really" read what Deuteronomy had to say in the Bible?
About how raping, burning, torturing, and murdering human beings is "God's word"?
THOSE PARTS
Or do you do what all the other bible thumpers do, CHERRY PICK and deny the "bad"
shit in the bible?
Knock off your god crap, Klimmer. It does NOT belong on this thread.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Norton,
Seeing as though we are talking about assassination, killing, is it lawful or not? etc. etc. It is very relevant to the discussion since much of the foundation of Western Law stems from The Good Book and The Law of GOD, the 10 Commandments.
I would say it is very relevant.
And your understanding of The Torah law is very naive and shallow. You would have to get into all the Jewish Hebrew commentaries that have been written over the millenniums to know the truth of the matter.
One thing is for sure, the OT Law was to show that all mankind is guilty of death and punishment because of their sin. No one is good. And we can not abide by the law without GOD ruling in our hearts. It's impossible. No one can make it on their own and abide by the law without GOD. That was the purpose.
It was a foreshadow and a pointing to the fulfillment of the law in Jesus Christ. We believe in Jesus Christ and GOD's salvation plan, and have Christ in our hearts, then we now can do it, we have a perfect role model for how to live, and we are forgiven. GOD is now with us and abides in us.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Klimmer wrote: That is why GOD reserves vengeance for himself only. He is omnipotent and his judgement is true.
You are full of sh#t.
God is perfect, vengeance isn't.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Klimmer, you have NO right to tell ME about Torah law.
You don't know me personally, or what my religious reading background is.
So shut up about stuff you know nothing about, ME.
Again, keep your own religious views to yourself, or post them on the god threads.
Your god talk does NOT belong on a killing bin laden thread.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Bob,
Vengeance = retribution
Perhaps you are bent by the word "vengeance." It is old english KJV.
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