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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Sep 22, 2009 - 10:54am PT
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"Taking the art analogy further, if someone flicks paint on a canvas with a beach towel, then says, "this is as good as any Jackson Pollock", that may or may not be true. But if a another artist disagrees, it's like telling that artist, "You have to first take up beach towel painting before you can talk about it." It's irrelevant."
So if you want to comment as a spectator, pick to your beach towel painting and stay away from climbing. A painting is easy to view from the peanut gallery and is designed with the peanut gallery. Climbing is an activity and the climb itself only reveals its secrets to those who climb it.
It's an irrelevant analogy.
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☻
climber
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Sep 22, 2009 - 11:03am PT
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What is the big deal? I saw more "enhancements" on that sport route at the base of Lower Cathedral Rock.
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Ray-J
Social climber
socal
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Sep 22, 2009 - 12:15pm PT
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Stupidly, I keep writing:
Was in yosemite when the wos ropes thing went down
And, gotta say, I know some (most) of those involved.
It may be true about the "clique", or the "social scene"
But, my honest impression of yosemite climbing back then is
That these folks -middendorf and grossman included - are
Really some of the coolest, most laid back and friendly people
You could meet.
And level headed, too.
Like, you gotta really blow it to get their attention and
Do something major - I do not know what - to get a major freak-out
Like the scene and actions regarding wos.
Again, pecking order: check.
Elite inner circle: check.
Anything new? Nope.
nothing about the valley scene back then struck me
as it being the domain of drama-queens or piss ants.
Just sayin'
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Sep 22, 2009 - 12:41pm PT
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wrt repeating the route:
as i understand it, at least one modern climber who, in all likelihood, could climb this route if so inclined, reported that he found the route more or less uninteresting, and he said or implied that he'd left it for greener el cap pastures because standing there in his aiders and slowly searching out inobvious slabby hook placements that may or may not have been the right ones (and so may or may not lead to other inovbious placements) was monotonous.
perhaps chief then among the "difficulties" of this route is maintaining interest over the requisite period of time, when there is so much other rock to be climbed, within even a short stroll...?
(it's worth noting that some of the much talked about "reporting" has come from climbers who were there to simply "check it out", and did not appear committed to climbing the route, even from the start, so it's also curious how few attempts there have been on the route- which IMO goes also to the analogy of any route as "art".)
so perhaps a better analogy than towel painting is that WoS is like a book, a long long long book, one that nobody besides the author has ever had the patience or interest in reading, at least not in it's entirety.
meanwhile, the author(s) claim it's "a true classic", and that the reading is simply too difficult for even all the other experts in their field, and that anyone offended by certain passages in the book has taken them out of context.
perhaps the book was dismissed by the authors' peers at the time it was released, and perhaps those authors were heavily criticized for something about the book.
now, a generation later, the authors are claiming that the book was criticized because they were smarter than everyone else, so everyone else was just jealous, and those who support the authors claim no criticism of the book or the authors is valid unless the book has been read cover to cover...
no, it's not a perfect analogy, but the argument(s) are just as pointless, particularly if NOBODY EVEN WANTS TO READ THE DAMN BOOK!!!
...i'm just sayin..
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Sep 22, 2009 - 12:48pm PT
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"nothing about the valley scene back then struck me
as it being the domain of drama-queens or piss ants."
Then maybe they can explain it in a way that doesn't make them look like the drama-queens or the piss ants that they've towel-painted themselves out to look like so far.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Sep 22, 2009 - 12:51pm PT
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"perhaps the book was dismissed by the authors' peers at the time it was released, and perhaps those authors were heavily criticized for something about the book."
Perhaps that at the time, the peers gave good reviews only to new authors who went down on them first, and these new authors had too much self-respect for that, so that these peers gave it a bad review without even reading it?
The only peers that bothered to TRY to read it gave it OUTSTANDING reviews.
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Darryl Cramer
Social climber
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Sep 22, 2009 - 01:01pm PT
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How many actually read Rememberence.....
How many make it all the way thru the Magic Mountain....
How many make it thru Finnegan's Wake...
I have never made it thru a Faulkner novel......
Climbing as ART is the biggest crock ever....
Interesting to compare the elite' "best of list" to the reader's list(L. Ron Hubbard is number 10!):
http://www.randomhouse.com/modernlibrary/100bestnovels.html
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Sep 22, 2009 - 01:03pm PT
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Where do I put the silver stake?
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Darryl Cramer
Social climber
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Sep 22, 2009 - 01:04pm PT
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Jim - Isn't it a wooden stake.....
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Sep 22, 2009 - 01:11pm PT
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SOMEBODY FIND A STAKE, PLEASE!!!!!
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Sep 22, 2009 - 01:12pm PT
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Whichever works Daryl.
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TwistedCrank
climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day
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Sep 22, 2009 - 01:14pm PT
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WTF is up with Ayn Rand? Never read her... Did I miss the memo?
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MSmith
Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 22, 2009 - 01:15pm PT
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Matt
Some misinformation needs attention:
-the authors are claiming that ... they were smarter than everyone else, so everyone else was just jealous,
Matt, that is laughable.
-the author(s) claim it's "a true classic"
Really? When did we claim as such?
-so it's also curious how few attempts there have been on the route
By my count 5 Supertopians have been on the route. Ammon states that he was just checking it out, and is the source of your hand-picked example above. Christian George might fall into the same category of becoming disinterested. Bill Russell and PTPP abandoned due to difficulty, not disinterest. That should give you a clue that there's more afoot than "disinterest". Also, the late Rob Slater (pioneer hard aid speed climber) abandoned after 5 pitches because he was going slower than expected and ran out of time, not out of interest. Based on the multiple sets of rap slings that appeared at the first anchor over the years, the number of other suitors was considerable.
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Sep 22, 2009 - 01:24pm PT
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From a few years ago....
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Sep 22, 2009 - 01:26pm PT
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"nothing about the valley scene back then struck me
as it being the domain of drama-queens or piss ants."
Ray, I lived there then. also ... and aside from fisticufFs, chopping chipping, bolting, thieving, drugging, deli stings, shakedowns, potatoes up pipes, SAR site turnover, procreation, polygamy, onanism, OCD, Manic Depression, ranger wars, concessionaire scandal, serial killings, plain ol' murders, holywood films, rigging stunts, base jumping, nudism, bridge jumping, cave sleeping, ferret legging...and somewhat active rock climbing scene, I never saw any sign of drama.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Sep 22, 2009 - 01:34pm PT
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re: :The only peers that bothered to TRY to read it gave it OUTSTANDING reviews."
not so, just the most vocal ones did...
Msmith-
1) sorry but no, it's not "laughable"- the term "jealous climbers" has been thrown around by you guys and your would be defenders a ton.
(EDIT- it was even written on the back cover of your own book!!! which if was somehow 'the publisher' rather than 'the author', at least has a bearing in terms of how you allowed your story to be told in the public arena, no?)
2) your partner called it a classic in this very thread but i am not going to go search for it, i considered asking at the time what that was based upon besides his own opinion but i was honestly trying not to egg him on any harder.
3) when someone goes slower than anticipated and runs out of time, that's running out of time, not bailing cause it's too difficult (often people return to complete long routes that motivate and inspire them).
4) slings on an anchor in no way indicate that whomever left them ever intended to do more than one pitch. that's like saying all the dogs peeing on your front lawn are trying to kill your cat.
5) wrt my "hand chosen example", there are not many who have the skill, have shown they are not averse to risk and big falls, have tried the route, and have posted their impressions.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Sep 22, 2009 - 01:40pm PT
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I await an answer to my query.
Was a DNA test done on the rope to determine which YOSAR members did the crapping?
Juan
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Sep 22, 2009 - 01:46pm PT
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Mark and Richard know who shat on their ropes. In spite of their extended olive branches, the perps have refused to 'fess up or apologize. Too bad, because they would be treated with civility.
I wasn't disinterested on WoS, far from it - I was freakin' scared! I observed no enhancements, in spite of looking very hard for any. The climbing is runout on insanely small hooking edges. To say that it is overdrilled or that there are too many bolts or rivets is ludicrous. The [legit] first two pitches are truly hard and dangerous. There are some nasty ledges to hit which would destroy your ankles, or worse. You are going to take repeated long serious falls until you figure out the hooking sequence, which is devious, twisted and sick.
I really wish Mark and Richard would STFU, though.
And you other wankers who diss the route without having seen it first hand, ought to either do the same, or go bloody climb it. We replaced all the bolts and rivets on the first two [legit] pitches, so there are no excuses. I will take a day off climbing to belay anyone who wants to give it a go. I'll even bring him some beer. Right now at Facelift would be the ideal time. Bring the whole posse up, we'll have beers and put some poor unsuspecting bugger on the sharp end, give him a few Leeper hooks, and send him on his way, with lots of shouts of encouragement from the peanut gallery.
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Gene
climber
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Sep 22, 2009 - 01:55pm PT
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Bring the whole posse up, we'll have beers and put some poor unsuspecting bugger on the sharp end, give him a few Leeper hooks, and send him on his way, with lots of shouts of encouragement from the peanut gallery.
That would be entertaining.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Sep 22, 2009 - 01:57pm PT
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Downright diabolical.
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