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franky
climber
Davis, CA
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Sep 11, 2009 - 01:09pm PT
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It isn't about not feeling sad for those people who lost their lives in 9/11 for such INCREDIBLY STUPID reasons.
It is the nationalistic fervor that gets tied to those deaths that is so repulsive. People die in horrible events all the time, we've killed hundreds of thousands more innocents than middle eastern terrorists ever have. It is the idea that those 3,000 people in the world trade center were somehow more valuable than Iraqis, Germans, Japanese, Afghans, or any other people on the face of the earth.
It is the fact that their deaths are celebrated with American flag waving, why in the f*#k would anyone wave an American flag to celebrate those deaths. It is nationalism, religion, and racism that got those people killed in the first place, and people wave one of the great banners of those concepts to celebrate their deaths? repulsive.
Sorry to those who died, and those who have died because they died. What a horrible day.
Edit: Also, sorry to those who haven't died, but have suffered terribly because of those events.
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wally
Trad climber
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Sep 11, 2009 - 01:23pm PT
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Thanks to everyone that has shared there stories. And condolences to all the victims. That being said:
Am i the only one that realizes and can see that IT IS PHYSICALLY IMPOSIBLE FOR ONE JET TO TAKE DOWN A BUILDING OF THAT MAGNATUDE? Let alone 3 buildings?
Furthermore: 3 buildings falling the exact same way in the same manner exactly? Probability dictats that this is impossible in a random instance (like a plane hitting a building). impossible. The chances of this happening is like lightening hitting the same place 1000000 times in a week.
Out of 300 million people nobody can prove this bring this out exspose who or what organizations are responsible for the death of thousands that day. The victims deserve the truth as do the rest of us.
I really think that more americans should drop there bibles and pick up a text book and learn something. Stop watching Fox news and start watching bbc or something. Don't let the powers that really run your country to win this time.
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Kalispell, Montana
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Sep 11, 2009 - 02:13pm PT
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Right on Tami. WTC7 is the gun that smokes the most. Sometimes, even the propaganda conditioned can see through that one. But most "educated" Americans have never even heard of that building.
Arne
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dirt claud
Sport climber
san diego,ca
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Sep 11, 2009 - 02:49pm PT
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Hmm, something big is coming soon. The divide between us is just getting wider and wider.
It just shows the mentality of the liberal mind that Juan would come on here and start a thread to remember those who died a tragic unnecessary death and just pay our respects and we get a bunch of so called "compassionate,caring" liberals talking crap about the U.S. and the "past" administration. Wow!!,way to show your big heart for fellow man guys and ladies. You have selfishness and ignorance in your hearts you keep proving it to us all the time. Nobody asked what you thought about Bush or the past administration or who's fault it was. You sellfish, careless people. Keep living your lives of ignorant bliss and stop talking to us about examples in history that have no relevance to the subject we don't just read history, we study it and learn from it.
Oh, but you have a bumper stickers that proclaim your Green and you care about the enviornment and freeing Tibet and ending violence in Africa. So that must mean you care more about the world and people than the rest of us. I haven't met or been around anybody who thought violence and a messed up enviornment was good, so cheers to you for being so special.
Hope we can start getting along soon and realize it's the government who is taking over and becoming our enemy.
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dirtbag
climber
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Sep 11, 2009 - 02:52pm PT
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dirt claud: YOU LIE!!!
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dirt claud
Sport climber
san diego,ca
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Sep 11, 2009 - 02:56pm PT
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good one dirt bag, and I lie because?
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apogee
climber
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Sep 11, 2009 - 03:46pm PT
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dirt claud, let me put it another way:
YOU LIE!
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WandaFuca
Gym climber
A survey where 68% preferred this Fuca over others
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Sep 11, 2009 - 03:47pm PT
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Keep living your lives of ignorant bliss and stop talking to us about examples in history that have no relevance to the subject we don't just read history, we study it and learn from it.
Speaking of ignorant bliss. History is rife with examples of leaders using tragedies as an excuse to misdirect the populace into going along with an agenda/war that had nothing to do with the original tragedy.
9/11 was a tragedy. The invasion of Iraq was a travesty.
We obviously don't learn, because we let those sacks of sh!t take a tragedy and use it, in our names, for their own selfish purposes, to commit violence against the innocent, which many continue to be blind to because, hey, we MUST be God's chosen people, and so we just couldn't eeeever do anything wrong and even if we did (which we didn't) they must've had it coming because, hey, we're God's chosen people and they're not.
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midarockjock
climber
USA
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Sep 11, 2009 - 03:51pm PT
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There is no vicarious liability under US law the last I checked, so with
the president you seem correct. Joint ventures, however can attach
liability to an entire US dept. or component.
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midarockjock
climber
USA
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Sep 11, 2009 - 03:54pm PT
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However,
it appears the US violated their own military laws and are currently
doing so now as reported by the news, due to the statutory time
frame allowed for war.
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dave goodwin
climber
carson city, nv
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Sep 11, 2009 - 04:43pm PT
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"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double edge sword. It both emoboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind. And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader and gladly so. How do I know? For this is what i have done. and I am Caesar."
Has history repeated itself?
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Roman
Trad climber
Boston
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Sep 11, 2009 - 04:45pm PT
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I was about 1/2 mile from the pentagon when it was hit ... I was working in news as well and feared the worst minutes after the towers were hit only to have my fears justified... HOWEVER to anyone who thinks we didnt bring this on ourselves by training them all in the dark arts of guerrilla war in the name of cold war with the USSR (Afghanistan) is only BELIEVING FALLACIES AND HALF TRUTHS IN THE NAME OF POLITICAL ALIGNMENT. To anyone supporting Bush's response or any of the preliminaries leading up to it I say 'FOR SHAME'. 9-11 is more our fault than anyone would like to admit.
In Afghan. they fire M-16's (as the majority) as well as a paultry number of AK's at us. Where did they come from????
I have nothing against repubs but those who sympathize with the CIA operative driven legacy of 2 generations of Bush's... You can all kiss my ass.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Sep 11, 2009 - 04:52pm PT
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I have a lot of sympathy for Juan's opening post.
While the politics are quite diverse, really they should all have been posted in some other thread.
It is a descent and even important thought to memorialize those who did die as a result of the actions on 9/11/01. Many of them died in heroic acts of selflessness trying to help others.
Many left families and friends now bereft of husbands, wives, fathers, mothers, sons, daughters.
Whatever you make of the cause and reasons, those who died no longer care, it doesn't matter to them, they never knew what became of the nation, the world, afterwards.
But I think we must remember them.
Thanks for you opening post, Juan, it is too bad it didn't go in a positive direction.
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BrianH
Trad climber
santa fe
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Sep 11, 2009 - 04:55pm PT
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History repeats itself
Coiling down into the future
When it's one second to twelve
The hands touch and follow deeper
History repeats itself
I didn't learn, I wouldn't listen
I couldn't see the books were on the shelf
For my good sense, I never missed 'em
Wish I was standing by the shore
Feel the wind blow in my face
See the waves roll in for an encore
They take a bow, they know their place
I do not want, I do not feel
I've turned away in myself
I can't find anything that's real
But history repeats itself
"History Repeats Itself" FROM AOL, soundtrack of "Natural Born Killers"
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Roman
Trad climber
Boston
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Sep 11, 2009 - 05:17pm PT
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Ed,
I completely agree and didi not mean to take away from their memory in the least. So many many heroes of the highest degree showed their merit in those fleeting moment and are true patriots and valiant human beings.
However this isn't Juan's first post about this and as much as I believe in your own (personal) care about this I can assure you that he is only trying to rile and incense people to argue with him. It's his MO and as a lurker I have seen it a thousand times over. It is NOT OK. But he doesnt care. I am sorry if I seem to have misrepresented my feelings. But he is a troll of the highest degree.
Anyway, you are right. reverence IS called for and I shall give it.
-
Roman
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Roman
Trad climber
Boston
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Sep 11, 2009 - 05:34pm PT
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If that's the case (as I am totally unaware of anything within his personal life) then I digress and apologize. I am only speaking from past experience over the years. I understand that we all do grow in such ways and wish not to condemn him in the way that I did. If he has changed in the way you say then he has grown as a man and citizen (albeit of the internet, I guess) and I respect that.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Sep 11, 2009 - 06:33pm PT
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As I said before; If you really want to honor the dead and the survivors you would DEMAND THE TRUTH!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Sep 11, 2009 - 06:37pm PT
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they can be honored and remembered for what they did independent of the cause
the only truth that matters to this thread, in my opinion, is the fact of their deaths
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Sep 11, 2009 - 06:38pm PT
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Thanks, Ed, for your posts. They're right on target. This thread isn't the one for casting blame. There's another one approaching 10,000 posts that would do just fine for that. Today we simply remember those who -- not being in any way knowing participants in any great game -- lost their lives eight years ago.
John
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Sep 11, 2009 - 06:53pm PT
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Would you be including the well over 100,000 souls lost in Iraq and Afghanistan in that solemn remembrance? Or just the ones on US soil? Will you hold the same sacred vigil for the anniversary of the Indian OceanTsunami of 2004? How about the Hurricane Katrina victims? Do stand in silence every anniversary for the dead of Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building bombing. How about the victims of the earthquake that struck the Chinese city of Shaanzi in 1556? It is considered the worst natural disaster of all known history likely to have taken the lives of 830,000 people.
Why they died and what can be learned from it to avoid repeating mistakes is more pertinent than that they died!
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