Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Jingy
Social climber
Flatland, Ca
|
|
Blue, one thing at a time (and I hate to point these things out, but I feel we all have to question ourselves when we come off sounding like experts on subjects we have no experience with)
"The situation is far more nuanced than what you're seeing, and what's more, you're still prone to thinking in terms oif the US being the political police of the world, and especially Central and South America.
Blue, this makes me think you have been to Honduras in the past and relatively recently. Sorry if I'm out of line, and really sorry if you have spent most of the last 40-50 years in Honduras.... but.. Have you been there to experience the lives of the common Honduran people? Have you held a job there? We all have heard (but not much) about the goings on in Honduras of late, and all kinds of political pundits have voiced their opinions on everything going on there, but even they have spent little to no time there, they have not lived the lives of the common Honduran, and have no clue what this is all about.
"If you only knew the enmity we have engendered from our meddling down south, you'd understand the wisdom of letting the thing play out without our trying to force the issue."
Blue, this would be one of the first times I've read sanity written by you. It gives me hope that your mind has somehow been expanded or enlightened. Good use of enmity too! However, the president should be put back in power to finish his term, without being shackled.
"The fact remains, no matter how illegal Zalaya was in seeking an end to term limits per his presidency, the military intervened and boosted the guy out of the country in his pajamas. That is not democratic process."
Again, written as if you have actually have given this all some thought.. has someone hijacked your log-in information? LOL
"Largo, 2 things. He was forced out by the military at THE ORDER OF THE CONGRESS AND HIGHER COURT. That's not a coup d'etat."
Blue, check your understanding of the term coup d'etat. A quick search on dictionary.com got me this, which pretty much says that this is a coup d'etat:
Dictionary.com - a sudden and decisive action in politics, esp. one resulting in a change of government illegally or by force.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/coup+d%27etat?o=100074
Websters - a sudden decisive exercise of force in politics; especially : the violent overthrow or alteration of an existing government by a small group.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/coup%20d%27etat
(Blue, that last part 'by a small group', yeah, I knew that we've all been told that the legislature, courts\ and the military are involved and they all came to the conclusion to carry out the coup... The problem I have? Do we know that Honduran government structure is anything like that of the US government structure? Not that we have total transparency in the US, but I'm thinking that with all those boogymen running things in the south all around Honduras... there has to be some corruption within the gov't. (I know you agree with me on this), but if that's the case, what does that say about the legitimacy of the coup, and all the steps that were/or were not taken to initiate this action against the democratically elected President.
"It was absolutely a democratic process when 2 branches of gov't said he had violated the constitution and has to go. Their constitution demands it!"
Blue, again, I have to call into question the 2 branches, and how neutral, or transparent the 2 branches even are? To check this, one just has to ask.. Is the military allowing the free flow of information about the actions the gov't has taken? If yes, then this thing is completely above board and if that were the case, I'd be behind the coup... but, we know that the military has enforced a blackout, and is only allowing their side of the story to be presented to the outside world. (BTW - the outside world is against the coup too, so I will never feel alone in this sentiment)
"Our 'meddling down South' is in the form of punishing a gov't that FOLLOWED THE RULE OF LAW AND IT'S OWN CONSTITUTION, we should be applauding the application of law."
Blue, you are slipping back into your old ways....
How are we punishing anyone? The US admin has not done a thing to help or hinder these actions. We're not dropping bombs, we're not making threats. We're not sanctioning the new coup gov't.
At least, I haven't heard anything like US punishment of the coup leaders, but then again... not much information comes from there these days. If you have the documentation, link it for me, and I will only expect US gov't reports on actions taken, not right wing, not left wing, and not blogs. So, do you have a link to a .gov page showing the actions the US is taking on the Honduran coup?
"You sound like Chavez. "The imperialists up North are meddling".
Yeah, we just shafted one of the true democracies down there by sanctioning them for their lawful regard for order and their own constitution."
Blue, again, do you have US government documentation on this sanctioning? Haven't heard or seen anything on this, but then again I have been dealing with my own personal coup within my own body. Also, somewhere above you mention "....the military intervened and boosted the guy out of the country in his pajamas. That is not democratic process.", which seems to be contradicted by this statement. Can you explain? Or not, it make no difference to me at all.
My take:
From the first days of this coup, the only lines I've heard about it is that the president was putting together a survey of some kind to, and was going to be asking the people on the street (the citizenry) who things were on the ground. That too me sounds like a good thing for the people of Honduras. I also see this action as bad for business leaders in Honduras, for if/when he had taken action on his findings, and instituted changes that resulted in a higher standard of living for the population of Honduras, that would mean that business would have to pay a higher wage to the workers.
Sorry if it sounds communist to you, but I generally think that when people of a country are given a decent wage, they are generally happier, more productive, and more willing to do more for the country... making the world a better place for all (sounds great, but it'll never be that way, and I don't kid myself about this type of stuff... life is never going to be as good as it can be for ALL).
I've said it before, I'm on the side of the people, and I believe that the people would not be in the streets if this coup was representative of the peoples will.
Good Day,
Cheers
TGT Edit - Does Honduras have the same oath as the US military? Have you read the Honduras Constitution? (Do you have a copy?)
Just checkin'
DUMMY EDIT: I just checked... those links are bad... can't find the actual Honduran Constitutional document. Removed the links, will update with my findings later.
|
|
Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
|
|
TGT wrote: "This does look like it was one of the few instances of a truly Democratic enforcement of the rule of law. You are correct in that the military held the keys to the power, but they didn't usurp the authority of the civilian government and the courts, they only carried out their mandate."
Where you lost your way on this one is in calling the coup a "truly democratic enforcement of the rule of law."
Did Zalaya break the law. Absolutely. The million dollar question was: What was the "truly deomcratic enforcement of the rule of law" in response to Zalaya trying to get a vote to extend his term limits. It WAS NOT to barge into his crib at 5:40 in the morning, stuff him on a plane and wisk him out of the country. You see if the Hondurans really had faith in the democratic process, they would have taken Zalaya to court etc. But they didn't. They boosted him out, and THAT is simply what all the people are raving about.
If the truth be known (this coming from a diplomat friend of mine), Zalaya is suspected of being mental," or a little sketchy upstairs.
But all of this is beside the point that the entire thing is not about democracy at all, but rather power. That's simply how things operate down there. Period. Just because the military didn't cook up the "mandate" to boost Zalaya from Honduras doesn't mean the boosting is not a coup. And anyhow, the military went along because it was in their best interests to do so. No one in the know believes the Honduran military was going to place the principals of democracy above self interests.
Fact is, the international community had almost forced a resolution by freezing Honduras out and stopping trade and so forth. Then the IMG went and screwed it up with a 150 million dollar handout.
JL
|
|
TGT
Social climber
So Cal
|
|
The SOP for all Spanish speaking America has been the "rule of the strong man" in preference to the rule of law. that has been the yoke around the neck of the common citizen forever.
Now we have an example where a usurper was defeated by the rule of law, the action of a Democratic body and a court following a constitutional mandate.
Why are you all so ready to stomp out the first green shoot of a genuinely Democratic action in Hispano-America that is almost unprecidented in its scarcity?
Do the elites still rule?
Sure they do, but they are following the rule of law for once and the letter of their constitution.
That's the first real step towards real Democracy and the statists now running this country want to snuff it out.
Why?
|
|
Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
|
|
Hey, Jingy, sorry I missed your post when I was writing mine. You're atribting some of what I wrote to my buddy Blue. No harm in that because I said plenty of things even dumber than Blue has, but not on this thread.
But just now I've got other stuff to do and need to check out for the night. You sound like a guy who would appreciate reading about Venezuela, which is really the most bizarre place going these days in all of that region.
CARACASGREINGO.WORDPRESS.COM is like peering into the back rooms of the place. Check out the gringo. That guy is remarkable in what he digs up.
JL
PS: TGT WROTE: "The SOP for all Spanish speaking America has been the "rule of the strong man" in preference to the rule of law. that has been the yoke around the neck of the common citizen forever.
Now we have an example where a usurper was defeated by the rule of law, the action of a Democratic body and a court following a constitutional mandate.
Why are you all so ready to stomp out the first green shoot of a genuinely Democratic action in Hispano-America that is almost unprecidented in its scarcity?
Do the elites still rule?
Sure they do, but they are following the rule of law for once and the letter of their constitution.
That's the first real step towards real Democracy and the statists now running this country want to snuff it out.
Why?"
No TGT, you're not seeing this clearly. I think you have too much emotional attachment to the issue. Personally I think Zalaya is a crank and of the same narcissistic strain as Chavez and Castro, though not nearly as smart or crafty.
Not listen to me on this one, folks. I know the beef these South American countries are having with this because I know a diplomate who sits in on all the negotiations in CR. Even Alan Garcia didn't like how it all came down in Honduras.
It's NOT that Zalaya was in the wrong, and a cheat and a bumbler and a moron. The beef is that he was basically kidnapped and deported by armed goons. That IS NOT diplomatic procedure - not by any definition in any country in the industrialized or western world.
That's the beef.
But the situation is far more nuanced.
JL
TGT WROTE:
|
|
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
|
|
Have you been there to experience the lives of the common Honduran people? Have you held a job there?
You're out of your element, Donny!
The "coup" was not a coup at all. The military was F*#KING ORDERED TO REMOVE HIM!!!! BY THE 2 OTHER BRANCHES OF GOV'T!
A coup implies a forceful removal that is unwarranted/unjustified. This wasn't. It was ordered! But 2 legal entities.
Also...his own party was involved in his ouster.
The dude was going Chavez on the country!
|
|
Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
|
|
Blue said: "The "coup" was not a coup at all. The military was F*#KING ORDERED TO REMOVE HIM!!!! BY THE 2 OTHER BRANCHES OF GOV'T!
A coup implies a forceful removal that is unwarranted/ unjustified. This wasn't. It was ordered! But 2 legal entities."
Blue, you're not geting what the rhubarb is about - you're simply getting hung up on the common definition of "coup," and then, because the situation in Honduras does not fit a classic "coup de etat," you're going on to justify the thing and claim it is a legitimate act of an enlightened democratic process.
What you and others on this thread are actually rooting against is Zalaya, who you suspect was another "socialist" insofar as he is a chum of Chavez, so you are excited that the Honduran "government" took action to get rid of him.
As mentioned, many times now, if Germany, or Sweeden or America or France had a president that violated the law, they would not settle it by ordering armed soldiers to kidnap the president in his PJs, cram him on a Cessna 250 and have him flown to the Dominican Republic. Call this last act a coup, or not a coup. Call it whatever you want to call it, but know that even other South American presidents who despise Zalaya are presently condemming his at-gun-point deportation because if this is left to stand - and what's more, if folks are tricked into believing this is a bona fide "democratic process" - then they too can be immediately disposed in such a manner.
As I said earlier, this really has little to do with democracy at all. It'a a power play. By focusing on this, you people are missing the real intrigue of this case, which is why the US allowed the IMG to pump 150 million into the place. Obama is "guilty" of condoning what many on this thread are calling "democratic action."
These are subtle waters . . .
JL
|
|
JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
|
|
John, you're correct -- these are, indeed, very subtle waters. Latin America's history has been plagued by two different sides of what is, often, the same coin: (1)dictatorial strongmen (or, in the case of the Peronistas, women) and (2)unilateral military intervention. More often than not, (2) led to (1). Because the history of unilateral military intervention has been so devastating, western liberal democracies generally, and now the OAS explicitly, have agreed to do all in their power to oppose any such future interventions.
This led to some odd (and oddly-forgotten) actions. When the military purported to overthrow Hugo Chavez, the Bush Administration supported Chavez against the military. This was not a case of people not knowing Chavez's true colors. He'd already shown them. It was the general principle that we do not support unilateral military intervention.
For this same reason, the initial Obama administration response to the ousting of Zelaya was to support Zelaya. My knee-jerk reaction was the same. As additional facts became known, however, the administration's support has waned -- not because of fear of attack from the right, but from greater knowledge of the situation.
The Honduran constitution's strong prohibition against a president serving more than a single term serves to protect against the possible ambitions of a would-be strongman. That's why there are such draconian provisions against a sitting president trying to change that provision. Zelaya's attempted plebiscite, expressly forbidden by their constitution, was just such an attempted change. The lawful authorities called for the appropriate remedy -- Zelaya's removal from office. Those same authorities ordered the military to carry out that removal.
Sorry, but that's no coup. If it were, Zelaya would have been shot on the spot. That's constitutional democratic government guarding against a danger to its continued existence.
John
|
|
Jingy
Social climber
Flatland, Ca
|
|
JElez - Keeping a watchful eye on how things turn out, say, checking back on progress in, say, 5-10 years, may gain further insight into how badly things can go. If things are left to fall out as they will, there may very well be a new dictator in town, now located in its new location, Honduras, where before, things were going along pretty well. We all agree that Zalaya was demopcratically elected, in a place rife with corruption for that to happen is a huge hurdle in and of itself.
John - Can't go to a blog. For me, it would be that same as going to the new and improved "Bluering" to get all the news about the Healthcare reform in America.. It's too much one persons perspective. However, with that said, I don't flatly say blogs are bad. They can be a place of great reporting, and that is the reason I may show up at the site you sited above. If I read too much opinion though.. it turns into something akin to "I'm writing this blog to change peoples minds about a subject they are not fully aware of, and may never know about, so I can say anything I want - style of reporting..."
Check Fox News for fair and balanced.. Bill what's his name, Ruch what's his name.. they are opinion, and hate and have no place being in my brain.
I just want to know the facts, and I feel that without actually being in the country, or living the life of a common citizen in the country, I can never get the real story.
Blue - Now you are definitely back to you old ways.. Please copy and paste some omore of JL's posts.. thehy give you more depth!
Cheers
|
|
gazela
Boulder climber
Albuquerque, NM
|
|
My son is out of Honduras now (and safely back at college), so now I care less about the situation there. But I have to say that the most bizarre notion coming out of this whole debate is the idea that no Honduran election can be legitimate unless and until Zelaya is restored to office, despite the facts (a) that he was due to leave office in January, anyway, (b) that he couldn't legally have stood for reelection, and (c) no one in Honduras, outside of the fringe-left (~5% of the populace, if that), seems to want the buffoon back.
Just curious: If the U.S. Congress were to impeach and convict President Obama (and the U.S. Supreme Court concurred with the action), yet Obama refused to vacate his office--and then the U.S. military were called in to evict him forcibly from the White House (and perhaps jet him off to more-friendly climes)--would that make it a "military coup"?
|
|
Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
|
|
I gotta work today but now it's lunch so here goes:
One of the things that makes the Honduras situation slippery is that things keep shape-shifting. But there are constants, and it's helpful to keep sight of these in a place like Honduras.
The first constant is that Honduras is broke, is a welfare state basically supported by external resources.
Second is that they have a military. All Latino militaries are not militaries in the normal sense of the word. No Latino nation fights wars. The military are just national police forces, and none are totally beholded to the government. Now a Latino military first and formost has to be paid. Especially the generals. Cut of the cash folow to the generals in Honduras and just watch what happens. It almost happened earlier but the IMG went and fudged things with their 150 million dollar infuision.
Next, while Honduras has traditionally be VERY corrupt, a democratic process started to take hold in the last decade. But remember, the entire political process in Honduras hinges on the "families" who control the media and the economy. Emperil these, and the democratic process will be stopped in a flash.
Zalaya came from one of these longstanding "rico" families. But a few months into office and Zelaya started shifting focus away from the ricos and controlling families and toward the poor (though he did nothing to really help them out). Never mind his scufles with political opponents (which used to be his own party), it was is periodic criticism on the United States, and periodic confrontations with the business sectors of elites in Honduras, thaqt made him a marked man. Once the elites were threatened, once their cash flow was looked to be crimped in any fashion at all, Zelaya had to go.
Using the guise of "democratic process" to kidnap and forceably deport the joker, we're left with the present situation. People not understanding that those in power today are simply the same corrupt oligarchy of shitheels and charletans, laud these rubes for advancing democracy, calling their action (in boosting Zelaya) legal yada yada. In fact, expatriation of Zelaya was a violation of the Honduran Constitution.[37] Article 102 of the Honduran Constitution forbids expatriating or handing over of Hondurans to foreign countries.
Both the people now in power, and Zelaya himself, are rogues and opportunists.
JL
|
|
Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
Latin America's history has been plagued by two different sides of what is, often, the same coin: (1)dictatorial strongmen (or, in the case of the Peronistas, women) and (2)unilateral military intervention.
Not to mention three or more centuries of (mostly) Spanish and Portuguese imperialism, overlapped by US economic and often political and military imperialism starting with the Monroe doctrine, especially since the US-Spain war of 1898. And no shortage of underdevelopment, economic and social inequity, nasty right-wing dictators (too often backed by the US and/or the CIA), often-absurd left-wing dictators, oligarchies, lack of a stabilizing middle class, corruption, lack of the rule of law, and on and on.
Obama et al probably spoke too soon about what happened. The legalities seem to be that the president had no right to hold the self-serving referendum he proposed, and the simplest thing would have been for the Honduran supreme court to say so, and to affirm that his term ends next year. Which may be the compromise that is needed, for the "ex" president to publicly agree to abandon the referendum, and accept that his term will end in 2010. That would uphold the rule of law, and restore what would undoubtedly be a lame duck to office, although how palatable such a compromise would be isn't for me to say.
|
|
Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
|
|
Mighty Hiker: Obama et al probably spoke too soon about what happened. The legalities seem to be that the president had no right to hold the self-serving referendum he proposed, and the simplest thing would have been for the Honduran supreme court to say so, and to affirm that his term ends next year. Which may be the compromise that is needed, for the "ex" president to publicly agree to abandon the referendum, and accept that his term will end in 2010. That would uphold the rule of law, and restore what would undoubtedly be a lame duck to office, although how palatable such a compromise would be isn't for me to say.
--
This is exactly true and the thing to do in terms of the legal process. But the main thing, the principal reason Zelaya got boosted was that he was a direct threat to the oligarchy/ruling class. He was suggesting a shift in power - and that never happens anywhere without a huge fight. The ruling elite were looking for an excuse to shunt him out of town, and the moron provided one with his attempted referendum.
JL
|
|
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
|
|
Mighty Hiker, it's not like the happend suddenly, with Zelaya. He had been proposing it and the Congress and the Court had warned him that it was uncool and unconstitutional.
He persisted and went directly to the 'people' in typical Marxist fashion, ignoring the process to get his illegal act supported by the people. He even led a march and broke into a military compound, not him personally, but the crowd he had frenzied, to access ballot boxes.
THEN the order was issued that he was out-of-control grabbing power and was detained.
As much as Largo wants to paint this as Zelaya was for 'change the people could belive in', it was illegal and loaded with aspirations of a power-grab.
As poor as that country is, wouldn't they benefit from a bit of capitalism and industry? Or is that always bad? Largo makes it sound like the 'ricos' and 'oligarchs' are a bad thing. That's the only keeping the textile, agriculture biz going...entrepeneurs. People with the education/money to develop business/industry/income.
Zelaya wasn't trying to change the country for the long-term betterment of the peeps, he was using them to maintain power.
There will be elections soon in Honduras. A warning shot was fired by the gov't that dictators won't be tolerated and will be acted upon.
Good for Honduras. Sh#t, we should be moving manufacturing out of Asia and into South America and especially Honduras.
It blows me away that we don't do this.
|
|
Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
|
|
It's the middle class (what's left of it) that are really upset in Venezuela - that and those with some edgeamacation.
Chavez made two titanic blunders this last month: 1) He set up socialist pannels of flunkies that will review the syllabus' and educational process of college profs. Of course the profs are not going for it so a showdown is in the works. 2) He has almost frozen trade with Columbia after being shown to be in bed with FARQ and after Colombia allowed US military to have forces in Colombia (Chavez claims the US is preparing to invade Venezuela to pinch all the gasolina).
Trying to reroute all of Venezuela's import needs through Argentina and Brazil is an impossible shipping nightmere and will greatly boost the price of goods in a market already looking at hyperinflation.
I expect things to get very ugly there within six months.
For a very biased but interesting blog on the situation, check out: CARACASGRINGO.wordpress.com
JL
|
|
JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
|
|
It seems to me that this thread has stayed focused on issues, not on the personalities of the posters. Is there any chance we can herd that other political thread into a similar discussion?
John
|
|
Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
|
|
Blue said: "As much as Largo wants to paint this as Zelaya was for 'change the people could belive in', it was illegal and loaded with aspirations of a power-grab."
Hold your horses there, Blue Boy. You're going to have to don the pointed hat and get back into the corner if you keep talking smack like that. Largo sez no such thing.
You know as well I do that I never said that Zelaya was "change the people could believe in." You made that shite up out of whole cloth and tried to fob it off on me, you silly rabbit.
Only a crank leftist would say such an untruth, and you know, or should know by now, that I'm a detached centrist, meaning I try and look at these issues, so far as I can, with no agenda or bias. Impossible, yes, but it's progress, not perfection.
For the record I think Zelaya is a crank, a maudlin yokel and a narcissist, though not nearly as grand as Hugo C. But hey, if Z had a few hundred billion dollars to c*#k around with, he might become just as whacky as El Presidente.
Too bad you don't understand Espanol. I'd lock you in a room and make you watch Alo President on Sunday - it goes for like 12 hours, is the only Sunday show allowed on public TV in Venezuela, and Hugo talks sh#t the entire time, sometimes downing as many as twenty shots of inky jo. The guy is amazing -and so full of himself it's ridiculous.
But none of this has anything to do with the fact that Manual Zelaya was railroaded out of his counrtry by armed goons in direct viloation of the constitution. To insist that this deportation is a great stride for the democratic process in Honduras is to cheapen democracy in the eyes of the world.
Fact is Blue, the forced exiling of Zelaya served your anti-socialist agenda, which is the knee-jerk response we'd expect from a right wing shoe shine like you.
So quit the fake Largo attributions or it's the pointy hat once more. Now go get yourself a golf message.
JL
|
|
TGT
Social climber
So Cal
|
|
Come on,
Zelaya is a Chavez acolyte.
Chavez paid for the ballots and Zelaya had computers with the election results preloaded in his bedroom closet.
A tin pot was given a chance to retire from the field rather than go on what would have been a long and violence ridden trial.
|
|
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
|
|
Alright, Largo, you're on record. It looked to me like you were leaning in his direction, Zelaya, that is. You're not. Fine.
But none of this has anything to do with the fact that Manual Zelaya was railroaded out of his counrtry by armed goons in direct viloation of the constitution.
^^^That is factually incorrect though.^^^
Zelaya's buddies are out stirring up the 'revolutionary' crap again.
Chavez and Aqmed-in-a-jihad, 2 peas in a pod those 2.
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=CNG.87b8890481f4f1f90eb45fabbef1e661.141&show_article=1
Word has it that we'll have a nuclear Venezuala soon too. For 'peaceful' puposes only, of course. Despite being a moster oil producer, Venezuala must want cleaner, greener energy...yeah, that's it!
|
|
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
|
|
|
Sep 22, 2009 - 11:27am PT
|
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20090922/D9ASAAM00.html
So this rat sneaks back into the country and is hangin' at the Brazilian embassy. He's demanding 'dialogue' after the Congress and Supreme Court kicked his a$$ out of the country.
I found this troubling;
The U.S. State Department announced Sept. 4 that it would not recognize results of the Nov. 29 presidential vote under current conditions - a ballot that was scheduled before Zelaya's ouster. The coup has shaken up Washington's relations with Honduras, traditionally one of its strongest allies in Central America.
What!!/?! The election hasn't even occurred and we're not recognizing it???? Zelaya was constitutionally ousted for clear violations and is also accused of felonious crimes.
Yet we're going to recognize people like Chavez, Aqmed-in-a-jihad, Castro as heads of state????
Hillary, wake the f*#k up!!!
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!