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WBraun
climber
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Jul 16, 2005 - 11:31pm PT
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Because we have missed the central point that we are not the controllers of nature, rather we are controlled by nature, and because we do not see that there is a Supreme Controller, therefore our vast research and display of intelligence is only so much waste of time.
The leaders, like the boatmen who have not raised the anchors are all illusioned. They mislead us into taking some temporary benefit, but how long can their plans and schemes go on? If they persist until they die of heart failure or are killed by assassins, then another just like them takes their place. Even the so-called philosophers of modern society are captivated by material name and fame, and so they do not lead the general populace in the proper direction. Thus the anchor of life remains deeply fixed in the waters of nescience for the purpose of sense gratification, and thus our so-called civilization rots in a stagnant pool. Because we are not moving, we are always in the same port of problematic life.
It is not possible to make progress as long as our desires are anchored in the material world.
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Spinmaster K-Rove
Trad climber
Stuck Under the Kor Roof
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Jul 16, 2005 - 11:53pm PT
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Ah! So kerry himself described his stories as 'exagerations' to Congress when he testified. Now I understand.
And to the best of my knowledge the Swiftboatkateers were taken head on. Their attacks were basically a 'he said, she said' scenario so there wasn't a whole lot to be argued about. They claimed that Kerry didn't pull his boatmate out of the water under enemy fire (or near it). The guy Kerry rescued seems pretty sure about it. None of the Swiftboatkateers were actually on Kerry's boat, and his boatmates appeared with him on the campaign trail. The doctor who claimed that Kerry didn't deserve at least one of his Purple Hearts has no physical evidence that he actually even examined Kerry to begin with. His name appears nowhere on any of Kerry's medical forms. It is quite possible that some of Kerry's 'heroics' were exagerated to a point. That would be nothing terribly suprising considering the circumstances. But Kerry went to Vietnam, and a few people there seemed to think he deserved some medals, and he got them. Bush weasled his way into the National Guard, and there is substantial evidence to show that he was substandard performer when it came to fulfilling his duties. But not enough for a court martial, which is the only thing that people like Howweird care about. Its not a crime if you dont get caught...unless you're a liberal in which case its better to not get caught cause then they can make stuff up about you and claim you got away with it.
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Spinmaster K-Rove
Trad climber
Stuck Under the Kor Roof
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Jul 17, 2005 - 02:28pm PT
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Dole has proved himself to be much more human in his years since retiring than he came across before. I like Dole the person quite a bit from what I have seen, and I have a lot of respect for his moderate, pragmatic views. I would happily have had him as a President over Bush.
As far as military service, when the Republicans viciously attacked Clinton as a 'draft dodger' not 8 years previously and he has now run against 2 veterans whose military records were attacked, military service becomes a clear and valid issue.
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Spinmaster K-Rove
Trad climber
Stuck Under the Kor Roof
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Jul 17, 2005 - 03:02pm PT
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What exactly do you think that he stood for that was so unappealing?
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Ouch!
climber
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Jul 17, 2005 - 03:24pm PT
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Dole made his bones in a vicious redbaiting campaign for the senate. Similiar to the lowlife tactics employed by his party today, and he continues to defend them. McCain has degenerated into a typical politician, blowing with the wind.
Weird's heroes. Pffffffttt!
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seamus mcshane
climber
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Jul 17, 2005 - 04:09pm PT
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LEB, you based your vote on the issues of economic philosophy and national defense (you and 64.5 million others) . Hmmm, surplus to deficit in about a year, and pissing, yes pissing away 300+ billion and 1763 lives as of 7/17. Boy, good thing we have professors like you teaching our youth...
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Ouch!
climber
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Jul 17, 2005 - 04:34pm PT
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LEB, it means accusing anyone who is not a rightwing wacko nutcase, like the denizens of the Repugnicant party, of being a communist.
Similar to the sleazy attacks on Max Cleland by the born again trailortrash, which justifies the invoking of Godwin's Law by
rational people.
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seamus mcshane
climber
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Jul 17, 2005 - 04:53pm PT
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Lois, sorry if I offended thee. What do you use as a basis for backing the economic policies and national defense agenda of the current administration? I've read all your posts thusfar and wonder how intelligent people like yourself come up with your opinions (something we all have)...
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Ouch!
climber
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Jul 17, 2005 - 05:34pm PT
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LEB, if your Repugnicant friends have their way, you won't be making a cent and a Mexican will have your job at 1/3 what you made.
A lot of good people fought and died for collective bargaining rights for the opportunity to have a shot at a decent life. Sadly, your Robber Baron Repugnicants fought them every step of the way and killed a lot of them.
Your skewed perception of history is at the root of the bigger problem.
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Ouch!
climber
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Jul 17, 2005 - 06:30pm PT
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LEB, you are right. I am just misguided. The reason you are able to work for minimum wages is due to the generosity of the robber barons. They only have your interests at heart. Why, they are even now exploiting slave labor in the third world so maybe you won't even have to work at all. Just sit around and starve and serve up your sons as cannon fodder, so their cronies can get big contracts and good Christians can kill "evildurrs" for Christ and sell prayer cloths from their mansions.
How could I have been so mislead!
"You load sixteen tons, whaddya get? Another day older and deeper in debt. I owe my soul to the company store."
Praise Jaysus! And Rove, the stain on Bush's blue dress. Big brown stain.
Weird, not racist. Just fact. Sorry you are too dense/Repugnicant to understand.
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Ouch!
climber
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Jul 17, 2005 - 06:49pm PT
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"why?"
Slave labor in the third world and foreign governments subsidizing their industries.
Cheap products require cheap production. Someone takes it in the ass and it ain't the robber barons.
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Spinmaster K-Rove
Trad climber
Stuck Under the Kor Roof
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Jul 17, 2005 - 07:03pm PT
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"The only good the unions ever did was in the getting the work week down to manageable size and cleaning up the workplace for safety, etc"
That's the only good thing they ever did? Isn't that like saying 'the only good the emancipation proclomation did was aboloshing slavery' or 'the only good thing that the American Revolution did was ensure independance from an overseas government.'
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 17, 2005 - 07:30pm PT
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"HowDumbBush:
Unions as we know them today are worthless and are a big reason American companies have a hard time competing internationally."
HowDumbBush,
First off I presume you mean U.S. companies as you will note there are a couple of other countries that you no doubt think unfortunately inhabit the Americas with us.
If you think unions are why U.S. companies have a hard time competing internationally you are really somewhat of a hopeless naive case. Union members in 2004 made up only 12.5% or the total U.S. labor force. The disparity between the cost of the average American family's lifestyle and that of a family in China is what is killing us. The playing field is just being leveled by technology and enhanced transportation and distribution logistics.
The industrial revolution was characterized by the movement of skills to the location of the materials - that revolution is officially dead and now we move materials to the location of the skills. Skills being equal - materials move to the cheapest body of requisite skills. The U.S., or any other country for that matter, can only distinquish themselves on the basis of better skills - or to quote the MIT [lefty] economist Lester Thurow:
"If you have the skill set of a Quatemalan day laborer you're going to get paid the same as them, it won't matter that you live in Queens, NY."
These shifting labor patterns are a natural outgrowth of a compendium of technology advances and are being driven by multi-national corporations and legally enabled in a broad sense by both Republican and Democratic initiatives. But the true excesses in ergious corporate behavior relative to its impact on the average family in the U.S. are entirely Republican initiatives. These include the pulling down of consumer protections, consumer recourse, environmental protections, undermining education, lessened government oversight of corporations (EPA, SEC, FDA, FCC, DoA, etc.) and the average family in the U.S. is experiencing a declining lifestyle as a direct result of Republican initiatives.
In fact, the Bush Administration can't sell out the "American" family fast enough - they employ smokescreens of social issues while literally pulling the financial rug out from under the very folks that voted for them - the average red state Republican family. Genius really, on Rove's part - shameful denial or ignorance on the part of their defenders...
And HowDumbBush, just curious what do you do for a living? I'm a technology consultant in an industry that relentlessly outsources to India, Vietnam, and Russia more and more so I know what I'm talking about and I stay ahead of the game by contiuously upgrading my skills every two years or so. How about you?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 17, 2005 - 08:40pm PT
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Lois,
The short question would actually be are you a tenured professor? At a public institution? And if yes, do you enjoy that employment security and look forward to that public pension - both represent quite a secure position the vast majority of "American" families don't enjoy. Neither would exist if your party had its way with both the management of our educational institutions and public pensions.
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Spinmaster K-Rove
Trad climber
Stuck Under the Kor Roof
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Jul 17, 2005 - 09:10pm PT
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Off on a couple points and a little aggro but damn son...pretty spot on. Doctors generally don't make much more than $125-175k a year though. There are those that do make more, much more, but most do not.
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Spinmaster K-Rove
Trad climber
Stuck Under the Kor Roof
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Jul 17, 2005 - 11:06pm PT
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The unions are only being demonized now because they were effective. Before the existance of the unions people were treated worse than the machines that they operated. You can still see the dreadful results when industry runs its own show in the catfish processing plants in the south similar work conditions where humans are expendable and only another tool to heighten the wealth of the owners. Our entire concept of work and workers rights has been shaped by the existance of unions.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Jul 17, 2005 - 11:31pm PT
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He wrote: Doctors generally don't make much more than $125-175k a year though.
That makes MDs the most lucritive generic (comprizing more than .5 percent of the population) profession in the history of the world. I donīt blam some of them for wanting more--who doesn't want more--but most folks find a way to squeak by on 125 to 175 K a year.
JL
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Ouch!
climber
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Jul 17, 2005 - 11:42pm PT
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The success of the union movement is what prevented Communism from ever becoming a viable political force in America.
They gave people hope, and more importantly, something to lose.
Livable wages meant a stake in the process.
The Neo-cons and robber barons now want to take it all away and erase all traces of Franklin Roosevelt.
We are becoming a nation of service workers and captive consumers, supporting Communist China with virtually every purchase.
I believe "Hoisted on our own petard" might be the appropriate phrase. A lesson too late for the learning.
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Ouch!
climber
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Jul 18, 2005 - 12:35am PT
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Nothing is perfect. Anything can be corrupted when people become complacent and settle for fairy tales.
Anything. Even a democracy can become so complacent and gullible, they will allow a tyrant in the house, sell out their children's future, and rely on Jesus to bail them out.
Made in America.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 18, 2005 - 12:37am PT
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"HowDumbBush:
Healy, I said he was a coward for stabbing fellow soldiers such as yourself in the back. He was an absolute hero for going in the first place. You libs are all alike, stay with your talking points and don't address what is actually said."
Kerry testified before Congress on April 22, 1971 on behalf of a legion of returning veterans. His testimony is at this link:
http://www.nationalreview.com/document/kerry200404231047.asp
Thousands more men and women died needlessly for almost exactly another four years after that testimony until the fall of Saigon on April 25, 1975. I personally have no problem with that testimony at all.
As for the "Winter Soldier Investigation", was it politically motivated, absolutely. Were some - some - of the testimonies falsified, amped up, or exaggerated, yes. Were My Lai's an everyday occurance, no. But much of WSI testimony was valid, with those individuals standing by their testimony. And my own experience was that "shit happens" on a daily basis during war which can bring out the worst as often as the best in men. 278 servicemen were convicted of crimes against the Vietnamese and you can be absolutely sure they are the proverbial tip of a very, very large iceberg orders of magnitude larger.
That is unfortunate but at the same time that is what war is about - unleashing the very best and very worst of our intent and behaviors at the same time and the reason why we, as a nation, and more specifically the President, better have a damn good reason and solid evidence for taking this country to war. This President had neither, and only an agenda that passed as the former and lies that satisfied the latter. As a result, Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and Wolfowitz, likely among others, are clearly guilty of taking this country to war under false premises - a treasonous act that put our service men and women in harms way unnecessarily.
"HowDumbBush:
Get over the Bush AWOL thing. Wishful thinking on your part but never provem."
Here you are hiding behind yet another apologist's "shades of gray" argument - that he jump the waiting list says it all, and given the Guard's typical record trail can't prove he did serve properly is equally damning. Is that really all a man of as many words as you has to say about the service/draft records of the men I listed above?
P.S. No answer to the union post either?
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