Atheism Appreciation Thread

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Bad Climber

climber
Mar 10, 2009 - 01:27pm PT
"Clinically dead" is not DEAD dead. Notice the word "clinically"? Why do you think that's added? Maybe because we're not dealing with someone actually, really, dead?

I had the distinct and painful experience of watching my father die, literally breath his last. Do you know how I know he's dead? He didn't come back.

Holy Cow!

Bad
pip the dog

Mountain climber
planet dogboy
Mar 10, 2009 - 01:41pm PT
cintune,
> Pip, that's not my quote, but that's okay.

oooch! sorry cintune. it was Fat Dad responding to you. oopsey.

where i grew up, we had a phrase for dopes guilty of fook'ups like mine (above):

"The next bus leaves town at noon, be under it..."

burlap underwear and hot wax on my wrists for a month for that fook'up. the nuns taught me how to do both.
~~~

> Cool that you met Derrida, man did that guy ever get a free
> pass or what?

i had a chance to hear lectures by all of the "gang of four". never understood a single word Derrida said. i kinda suspect he didn't either.

> I enjoyed reading Foucault

reading Foucault did light up a few of my synapses way BITD -- while short circuiting many more. if Foucault was right, and that "whatever we read, we simply read the book of ourselves" then there is no difference between reading the yellow pages and reading Shakespeare. bzzzzzzzztt (the sound in my brain just now).

having simply been in the same room with Foucault for a few moments -- i had this immediate and profound urge to take a shower. Bloom used to forever refer to him as "that diabolical frenchie with his hands down his pants..." yeah, like that.
~~~

Bloom alone among them was truly remarkable. only soul i have ever met who has a true photographic memory. if he ever read it, he could repeat it, perfectly -- and give you the precise page numbers in any of the available editions he had read.

once, as a frosh, i had the chutzpah to weasle my way into a grad seminar he was doing on Freud. and this one was a doozie -- as Bloom hates Freud and yet is in the same league and is forever duking it out with him. (the "Anxiety Of Influence" on 3 levels all at once).

at one point Bloom asks me a question about one of Freud's essays (which, thankfully, i had actually read. Bloom made us read _all_ of Freud -- and that is a sh!tload).

i absolutely collapsed as Bloom stared hard into my eyes. i eventualy muttered something about how it kinda maybe reminded me of a passage from Nietzsche in 'The Geneology Of Morals'. i start flipping through a copy of that book which i just happened to have in my backpack. Bloom asks "which translation is that?" and i say, "um... Kaufmann, Vintage..."

and with that Bloom looks at the ceiling and says "page 132" and then quotes that passage in that precise translation, many paragraphs long, _verbatim_. i know because i was staring right at page 132 in that book (Bloom was just staring at the ceiling).

imagine having a mind like that. cheese and crackers!
~~~

years later i came to know the man a bit better, and sometimes would walk from campus to his (then) home -- as i was living in a slum many blocks away but in the same general direction. sometimes he would invite me down to his dank basement for a Lucky Lager (he of course always figured out the riddle under the bottle cap of that cheap beer in a heartbeat.

and sometimes we would watch late night UHF televangelists on his like circa 1955 B&W tv (a 12" screen in a box the size of a buick). and Bloom would sit there and roar and deconstruct the sh!te out of them. one of the most hilarious and yet brilliant things i have ever witnessed.
~~~

for all of his remarkable genius and circus sideshow memory tricks, Bloom too is forever drawn to the mystics.

see his short bit on the 'J' writer in the OT in "The Western Canon" that and his insistance that Shakespeare was, perhaps alone, both a mystic and a quick wit good guy you'd want to have a beer with.
~~~

well, fond memories.

ok, off to find some burlap, candles, and then to try yet again to pretend to the current wad of suits i hope will eventually sign my check that i too see the genius in their brand of panty liners...

(and you wonder why i am tying up so much of the local bandwidth of late. i'm dying here...)

all good things,


^,,^
pip the dog

Mountain climber
planet dogboy
Mar 10, 2009 - 02:12pm PT
jstan,

> As an aside archeologists found a neanderthal burial site
> containing a Down's syndrome sufferer who had reached about
> thirty years of age. And since the Neanderthal tackled very
> large prey using only pointed sticks, archeologists find few
> Neanderthal who have not suffered broken bones. The injured
> were routinely nursed back to health.

Yeah man. I’ve just recently read of a neanderthal burial on the french/spanish basque border of a woman who had been horribly broken surely before she was twelve. All manner of broken bent limbs and bone growth donuts and the like. There is no way she could have walked even 20 feet after that disaster.

And yet her bone growth by the time she was buried demonstrated that she was surely almost 50 when she died – absolutely ancient in that day. Clearly someone had carried her, and fed her, for nearly 40 years. Why?

The popular idea that the neanderthal were grunting farm animals is absolute crap. Oh to have sat by one of their tiny fires to better understand (though I’m happy to have a thermostat here at Big Earl’s Stop’N’Flop – not that it works or anything).

Here’s one I have been trying my best to follow of late: the pros are finding these little pits in the clay/dirt in the neanderthal site caves – all showing evidence of water seep and all chock full of the pollen of local grains and nuts. That and almost always a few bone frags from the local prey of choice (think, lunch).

What might this be?

Here’s my theory: you dig a hole in the clay and fill it with water and local nuts and grains and such. Then you throw in some rotting bits of squirrel (or whatever).

Give it a few days, and you get what? Lucky Lager! -- of course! Well, that’s my theory.
~~~

OK, enough. I now really really have to pretend to be a schmert guy and actually working -– or I will end up on someone’s sofa begging for peanut butter. Yours? And these days, peanut butter might well be deadly.


Soon and forever...

^,,^
jstan

climber
Mar 10, 2009 - 02:37pm PT
The oldest direct reference to a brewery I have seen was in Egypt 3500 YBP. Managed grain stores complete with records as to what belonged to whom are found in Greece dating from the pre-classic period which makes sense as agriculture dates from earlier than 5000 YBP.

I would guess alcohol dates from the time of the first grain stores that could have been exposed to the elements.

Just think of that. 5000 year old single malt.
cliffhanger

Trad climber
California
Mar 10, 2009 - 02:59pm PT
This site: http://www.evilbible.com/Murder.htm gives alot of reasons to appreciate atheism. Numbers 31:35, 40 describes the sacrifice of 32 virgin girls for the glory of God ("the Lord's tribute" means sacrifice as burnt offerings).

Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Mar 10, 2009 - 03:30pm PT
pip wrote:

"One of the things that often strikes me about the theists so absolutely certain about their guess is that they seem to my eye to fail to even try to comprehend how a truly omniscient, benevolent, and compassionate God might act."

As a theist (a Catholic if you want to pigeon hole me), I disagree with this statement. The entire New Testament is about God's benevolence and compassion. Paul's Epistle to, I think, the Phillipians, says "God is love." How can that be any clearer?

"In the Judeo-Christian tradition it is said that we bipeds were created in God’s image. I often see evidence of my fellow bipeds doing the exact opposite – creating a God in their image. A god who is angry and pissed at anyone who has pissed these specific bipeds off. A God who wants justice and revenge. The OT certainly feeds this mindset. Jesus (other than in Paul’s personal interpretation) never did this. I do have this ongoing big problem with the epistles of Paul."

Of course, people try to fashion an image of God knowing only what they know. There are limits to human knowledge. How can man do anything but that?

Also, the OT and NT are clearly distinct books. While the NT is a fulfillment of the OT, it is essentially Jesus rewriting the rules established in the OT. Given that, why would you have problems with the Epistles?

"I believe that if there is a God, a truly and perfectly omniscient and compassionate God – that He (or She or They) won’t be even remotely so small as bipeds like me. God as I can even begin to comprehend, surely wouldn’t be so trivial as the lot of us. Imagine complete and omniscient compassion. Well, try -- who among us truly could. I believe that such a God would not create a hell for anyone."

I think it's fine to speculate on God's nature. However, you seem to penalize folks who you deem to lack the same pedigree as you when they attempt to do the same.

Having said that, I too have a problem with the concept of Hell. I believe God to be all compassionate. Why, for example, would he penalize a person born into poverty in a culture where Hinduism or Buddhism is the religion of that culture. The person has no access to Christ's teachings. They live a miserable life and die a miserable death. What justification is there for tossing such a poor soul into Hell. That scenario doesn't jibe with my belief of God. Does that mean I can't subscribe to the Catholic faith. For me, no. It just means that I acknowledge that I can't and don't know everything of God's will, and I'm OK with that.
pip the dog

Mountain climber
planet dogboy
Mar 10, 2009 - 04:01pm PT
Fat Dad,
> I think it's fine to speculate on God's nature. However,
> you seem to penalize folks who you deem to lack the same
> pedigree as you when they attempt to do the same.

um, having read your last post, i truly believe we are very close to of one mind on this.

i truly have no interest, or faith -- to use that word, in penalizing anyone's best guess in this essential and massive arena. watch what i write, in the past and whatever forever i have left. i am confident you will never see evidence of me dumping on anyone's best guess, their faith. do call me on this if you see an exception, you might well save my soul.

i stand by what i wrote, and have long written. that any God worthy of the name is not so small as to beat up on morons like me who do our best to make our best guess -- and then work hard to live up to the responsibilities that guess entails.

most everyone dear to me believes something profoundly different than what i believe, today (that may all change tomorrow). and yet it is easy for me to love them. we all make our best guess. for that is the very definition of faith.

OK, back to the remarkable history of disposable diapers -- for i fear the suits are on to me... yikes!


^,,^
GOclimb

Trad climber
Boston, MA
Mar 10, 2009 - 04:17pm PT
Wow, you guys are really insightful and articulate! I mean that sincerely, and I'm enjoying the cool conversation!

I don't have such well formed ideas - this isn't my area of expertise. But I just want to say one other thing.

Way back on page 2, I gave kudos to the atheists among us for "wisdom". Yeah, self-knowledge is kinda nice. But there's something else which I think is a bigger deal.

Atheism requires a certain type of bravery, and I'd like to salute that. Especially in folks like Pip, who have a strong religious background, and a lot of really religious friends whom they respect.

Bad Climber has said it best - God and Religion are comforting. It takes a certain kind of bravery to put that aside and say "I can do with what we've got." That's a big sacrifice, just think of it - to admit that THIS IS ALL WE'VE GOT! Maybe 80 to 100 years, if we're lucky. A pinprick of existence in all of eternity. It's both insanely lucky that in all the time of the universe, I'm alive, here, now - a gift beyond measure! But at the same time, how scary - death at the end, and then - nothing.

In the face of this awesomely precious and fleeting gift, and needing comfort (who doesn't?), it's hard to see how God, and Religion, could fail to come into existence if it didn't exist already!

So to set aside all the comfort that religion gives us against the horrible crush to the ego we get from our knowledge of the eternal universe - I dunno, I think that takes courage.

Cheers,

GO
WBraun

climber
Mar 10, 2009 - 07:39pm PT
This thread should be called "Atheistic Arrogance" instead.
Largo

Sport climber
Venice, Ca
Mar 10, 2009 - 07:52pm PT
Go wrote: "God and Religion are comforting. It takes a certain kind of bravery to put that aside and say "I can do with what we've got."

So Go, what is it that we "got?" Not an idea or a concept or representation or belief of what we got, but really and truly what "what" is.

Not a trick question . . .

JL
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Mar 10, 2009 - 08:26pm PT
tragic
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Mar 10, 2009 - 09:28pm PT
Yes, but what do we "really" know about Jesus?
cintune

climber
the Moon and Antarctica
Mar 10, 2009 - 09:33pm PT
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_myth_hypothesis
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 10, 2009 - 09:39pm PT
speaking of arrogance...
WBraun

climber
Mar 10, 2009 - 09:40pm PT
Glad you like it :)
pip the dog

Mountain climber
planet dogboy
Mar 10, 2009 - 10:06pm PT
Tonight, in my current boredom and misery, I went to the local strip mall video joint and rented both a DVD player and "Dr. Strangelove..." (took me two credit cards - both with my actual name on them.)

This is what this fook'n thread has lead me to -- and I hold all of you personally responsible.
~~~

"I've been to a picnic, a rodeo, and a World's Fair -- and this is the stupidest thing i've ever heard."

"Plan R."

"Major Kong, is it possible this is some kind of loyalty test?"

"Do you recognize my voice, Mandrake? You don't think I'd ask if you recognized my voice if this wasn't pretty damned important, would I? So let's stay on the ball, eh Mandrake?"


See you all at La Putah...

^,,^
Willoughby

Social climber
Truckee, CA
Mar 10, 2009 - 11:21pm PT
This Buddhist walks up to a hot dog stand and says,

"Make me one with everything."

(insert first rim shot)

So he gets his hot dog, and after waiting expectantly for a bit, asks for his change, to which the vendor replies:

"Change comes from within."
john hansen

climber
Mar 11, 2009 - 12:16am PT
So ten or fifteen million Chinese die in the "Cultural Revelution. Very few have ever even heard anything about "western" type religion. Inca's ,Mayan's,Aztecs, and millions of native Americans are killed or die from smallpox ect.

They never heard of christ.

Most of the millions of people just like you and me that have lived in the last 200,000 years believed in some type of god, I even admit that I believe that at certain times you can trancend to a different plane,, (like the focus of climbing or playing an instrument).

But like a bug hitting a windshield, I think when you go.. its light's out.

Why should human's be so lucky...Chimp's have 99 % of our DNA.. if you baptize one ,does he get to go to heaven too?

And lastly,, two questions,




1) Who was the first guy that walked up to the pearly gates...?



2) And ,what year did they open up for business...?


Religion can be a good moral base for some people but,, I just can't believe in an afterlife.




John Hansen
Jennie

Trad climber
Idaho Falls
Mar 11, 2009 - 01:34am PT
"So we know he performed "miracles" thanks to a 2000 year old book written over a generation after Jesus' death."

Yes


"And, I presume, that this religious text somehow trumps other religious texts discussing miracles of their prophets."

Not necessarily, what texts and which prophets and miracles are you considering? There was one Christ. But many prophets and teachers came in the name of salvation and enlightenment..... and in various places and diverse cultures.

The validity of christian precept does not necessarily invalidate other divinely inspired moral injunctions........except in individuals of a proud and competitive mindset. The same competitive inclination that, today, falsely attempts to define religion and science as being polar opposites.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Mar 11, 2009 - 01:50am PT
" There was one Christ."

Paul said to put on the mind of Christ. Jesus said that we could do everything that he did and more. The Christ is a state of consciousness. It is the wedding garment. There is not just one Christ, though there is only one Christ consciousness.

When Jesus said he is the way, he was not referring to himself as a human, but to the fact that he embodied the Christ consciousness. Once you realize oneness with the Christ consciousness, then you become the Christ. We are all called to be the Christ, to be the light unto the world.

Buddha was the Christ. Krishna was the Christ. Jesus was the Christ. And there have been many more. The Christ consciousness is the open door to oneness with God.
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