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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Feb 16, 2009 - 05:05am PT
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O.K., well put. Those are good questions that reasonable people should ask. I like good questions, even better than good answers. Socrates was one clever guy.
edit- When I read a lot people's posts, the word "control" keeps coming to mind.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Feb 16, 2009 - 07:59am PT
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Saw HIM recently at 30th and Arapahoe, scared the sh#t out of me,
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d-know
Trad climber
electric lady land
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Feb 16, 2009 - 09:02am PT
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will it be the blonde haired
blue eyed version, or the
one that looks more like
osama bin laden?
as for god being "unlabelable",
yo keep calling it a he and
its probably pissing her off.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Feb 16, 2009 - 09:51am PT
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Paul Roehl said Yeah, You losers should listen to Wbraun he knows what's cookin' spritually! He has a test where you jump out of a plane without a parachute at 20,000 feet and before you hit the ground (about two feet above it, in fact) you're gonna believe like you never believed before. That's all it takes just this simple test to prove that there are no real atheists just posers without the balls necessary to really believe.
Why does such an inane statement seem so "obvious" to you. I just took a 75 footer in the Black Canyon a little over a year ago. Fell head first for the most part (kind of a Cameron MO as Brunosafari could attest). I can assure you, no thoughts of God, or Jesus, or belief in the afterlife crossed my mind, not immediately before, during, or after my fall. And you think it takes "balls" to believe? How can somebody force themselves to believe in something - particularly something like a religious idea that inherently requires faith rather than reason?
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MikeL
climber
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Feb 16, 2009 - 10:03am PT
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Ed, that's not fair. "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him" is a saw that refers to the nondual and is a reproach to those beginning to take pride in their spiritual achievements. If you are taking spiritual refuge in a doctrine or concept of any sort, then you don't get it. You've missed it. Kill that idea. No concept or principle or doctrine will get you there. They are just pointers; they put you on the path, but they don't take you down the path. YOU do that. You must have experiences, and if you understand those experiences, then they will turn into realizations that will change your being.
The Buddha said many things that were contradictory as he used "skillful means" to convey meanings to people of various skills and realizations. (Would you talk to your daughter the same way you would talk to your professional colleague about some technicality?) In the end, he said people should make up their own mind based upon their own experiences. If anyone wants to know the meaning of anything, then that person needs to perform the injunction. If you want to know what art means, then you have to practice it. If you want to know what algebra means, then you have to practice it. If you want to know what climbing means, then you have to practice it. If you want to know what a form of spiritualism means, then you have to practice it. You can see for yourself. It's that simple, and it takes a commitment just like anything worthwhile. However, as one learns and progresses, different learnings will occur that will mean giving up old points of view that were learned earlier. That happens in any field of study.
There is no external proof for anything. Everything is a belief, even physics. Scientifically, you can't prove anything, and you can't falsify anything unless you believe in the absolute certainity of the sigma of a distribution or a level of confidence of some statistical measure (.05 or some such arbitrary standard). In the end, it's a leap of faith on everything. The best thing any of us has going is a direct apprehension of anything, epistemologically.
The nondual: not acceptance, not rejection. Just peace.
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 16, 2009 - 10:55am PT
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Paul Roehl was making a sarcastic joke towards me and everyone starts flipping out that it somehow remotely resembles anything true.
Hahahaha
The internet is way to funny sometimes ....
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Feb 16, 2009 - 11:55am PT
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details on that fall, Eeyonkee? 75 feet is getting pretty close to a big one!
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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Feb 16, 2009 - 11:55am PT
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Wow, that's gotta be the most selfish, broken, and delusional thing I've heard or read in while...
Although it was very uplifting. I relish in the fact I'm correct in my a*#umptions that the bulk of people on this planet are just plain f*#king stupid.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Feb 16, 2009 - 12:04pm PT
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Apostle
You seem sincere and I think your Love could take you a long way if you dropped the fire and brimstone.
Few people have turned their hearts to Love under the threat of eternal torture. People didn't love Hitler, or Stalin, and the God you project, according to you, is a much worse despot than those guys.
Fortunately, you only seem to know the letter of the scripture and today's fundamentalist interpretation of it. I suggest one of two things
1 Either stick to the redemptive power of love and forgiveness preached by Christ and let it transform you and those around you.
or
2. Do some academic and serious research into the formation of Christianity, the formation of the Bible, and read some textual criticism by serious scholars of the Bible. Read the teachings of Jesus separate from the interpretations of Paul, who never met Jesus, and ask yourself "Why would Lord Jesus choose a man who was out to exterminate his followers as his chief teacher?"
The return of Jesus has been expected as immanent ever since he was executed. Jesus himself said plainly in the gospels it would be within one generation.
Fact is, nobody knows and yet for thousands of years the end has been near. He better come with guns blazing or he'll be thrown in Gitmo.
How will you know him? Last time he came he severely criticized the traditional, common interpretations of his own religion at the time, Judaism, which he observed faithfully. If he comes again and criticizes Christianity, will you consider him a cult leader as he was considered then?
Don't make a idolatry of a Bible that you haven't really studied behind the scenes. God and Jesus are Spirit, Here and Now. YOu don't have to wait for any return.
Peace
Karl
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d-know
Trad climber
electric lady land
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Feb 16, 2009 - 12:05pm PT
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and ye shall know him
with thine eyes.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
Monrovia, CA
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Feb 16, 2009 - 12:05pm PT
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Very nicely put Karl.
Case closed.....
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dirtbag
climber
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Feb 16, 2009 - 12:19pm PT
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I didn't know Satan had man boobs.
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Redwreck
Social climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Feb 16, 2009 - 12:21pm PT
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The devil is in the details.
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Feb 16, 2009 - 12:33pm PT
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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Feb 16, 2009 - 12:34pm PT
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"Behold the baby Jesus! "
Please don't tell me you're gonna nail it to a cross...
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hossjulia
Trad climber
Eastside
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Feb 16, 2009 - 12:38pm PT
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excellent reply Karl, thanks for that.
Baby Jesus = G-O-D spelled backwards!!!!!!! Love it!
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andanother
climber
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Feb 16, 2009 - 12:43pm PT
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I love it when people try to rationalize with the religious folks. It's like talking to a brick wall.
If they had the ability to rationalize, then they wouldn't be religious! You're trying to have a mature conversation with a group of people who have chosen a life of immaturity. They refuse to grow up, because being a child is just easier.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Feb 16, 2009 - 02:00pm PT
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Nice stuff Karl.
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Flanders!
Trad climber
June Lake, CA
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Feb 16, 2009 - 02:09pm PT
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Interesting and timely thread, and what a great place for this discussion, given that this crowd is among those most often out in the most beautiful and amazing places.
Good job Apostle in laying out the facts:
Of course there is a God.
Jesus said he would return, of course he will, and this will be the most rad event the world has ever known.
These discussions always bring out a wild mix, and apparently have done so for a few thousand years. I always wonder about the angry detractors: Is this a case of "Don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is already made up"? Or maybe it's a case of "Anything is possible when you don't know what you're talking about". Either way, we ought to be patient (and respectful) with those who angerly diss the Love of God.
Genesis thru Revelation cleary speaks of the redemption of Mankind thru a Divinely appointed Savoir. Sounds like Love to me! I think I'll hang with Abba!
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Feb 16, 2009 - 02:21pm PT
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The Easter Bunny is coming very soon too. Don't deny that fact.
Mmmmmmm. Chocolate.
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