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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Jan 30, 2009 - 01:41pm PT
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Hey Paul,
I understand that it is difficult to believe in Karma. That at first glance it can appear that God is cruel. But if you think about it, it is no different then any other law, such as gravity. Gravity can seem cruel, but what would life on this planet be like without it.
Karma is the result of the gift of free will. You can not have free will without having consequences. Without free will then you are just a robot. Is that what you would prefer so that you can avoid the consequences of your actions. At one time you enjoyed climbing and maybe still do. Would it be or have been as enjoyable if there were no consequences from gravity? Not likely. Free will is the same way. It is not free will if there are no consequences. The problem is that most people don't understand that they have lived more then one lifetime. This is a result of the blind church leaders who removed the teachings on reincarnation that were common during the life of Christ. So common that he likely didn't feel the need to address them as he barely did except to say that you reap what you sow.
You likely believe in newtons 3rd law which states that every action has an equal and opposite reaction. Do you think that that is cruel? Or do you just accept that that is the way the universe is so that it can work? Every action has an equal and opposite reaction is the law the Karma. Without karma we can not have truly free will. It is just not possible.
If you created a world where no wrong actions could be taken, then you would not be giving the beings on it complete free will. It would be like going to disneyland to ride the rides and thinking that that was real living. Its nice for a time, but at some point you would want to challenge yourself.
You are hung up on the notion that it is cruel for babies to suffer. Try to look at it from a spiritualist perspective. That baby isn't really a baby. In human terms it is, yet in spiritual terms it is a being that is very very old. Time measured in many thousands, if not millions of years. It has had many lifetimes to create all kinds of karmic return.
As I said before, it is much much more complicated then this as there are ways to hold off Karma, in essence appear to cheat the law of every action has an opposite and equal reaction, yet eventually in some lifetime your actions will catch up to you. It just may appear for a time that you have beaten the odds.
The main problem during todays time is that there are few who know the Truth. There are many impostors and finding ones way can and often is difficult. But this is not because God made life difficult. It is because we chose to walk away from God's guidance, much like a teenager walks away from his parents guidance. To give someone free will, you have to let them try things, and even let them make mistakes. Even grievous mistakes.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 30, 2009 - 01:51pm PT
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roehl doesn't even have a clue what or who he is.
He's making the first most fatal mistake.
He thinks ..... I am this body.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Jan 30, 2009 - 02:04pm PT
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That might be so Werner, but beating him over the head with it likely will not help him understand. You have had years to absorb some of the knowledge that you had. I am willing to bet that when you first heard some of the things you know now you told the person that what they were saying was baloney. I know that I did. From what I have heard about you, some of your initial interest was sparked by people who you highly respect. Most people are that way. They will not listen until they find someone that they respect.
Don't react to the lack of respect. That is just the ego. Instead, appreciate where a person is and that they will have to find their own answer, much like you have.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 30, 2009 - 02:13pm PT
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Religions or absolutist belief systems have always found ways of justifying cruelty. In cruelty is control, in control is hegemony. The "reason" that is my birthright tells me that making a child suffer is wrong. That is a self evident truth. Extrapolating the cause and effect of physics as a justification of what to any reasonable human is cruelty demonstrates a lack of understanding both of physics and natural empathy.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville
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Jan 30, 2009 - 02:15pm PT
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I am here today. I will try to be here tomorrow but I will not let this get in my way of being here today.
What waits for me after this life I do not assume.
If I were to say I know, I would be lying.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Jan 30, 2009 - 02:20pm PT
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"Extrapolating the cause and effect of physics as a justification of what to any reasonable human is cruelty demonstrates a lack of understanding both of physics and natural empathy."
I have plenty of empathy when someone is hurt by gravity. But I don't blame gravity.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 30, 2009 - 04:32pm PT
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"I have plenty of empathy when someone is hurt by gravity. But I don't blame gravity."
You give free will to man but not to God? If gravity had a choice then it would be worthy of blame. If God has no choice then how can he be omnipotent? So many of these belief systems especially in the east end up being solipsistic.
One thing we should all do in a discussion such as this is to take time out to look in the mirror and say, "I might be wrong." In our hearts we are all agnostic to some degree or another,
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 30, 2009 - 04:44pm PT
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Dr. F,
You deserve a trophy for what you put up with on that other thread. The disciples of love, indeed.
PR
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 30, 2009 - 06:58pm PT
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"Science has proved that god does not exist."
That's impossible to do. Science is God, God is science.
Acintya Bheda Bheda Tattva -- simultaneous oneness and difference.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 30, 2009 - 07:08pm PT
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Good point: if God is absolutely every-thing then he is absolutely no-thing. Now everybody's right and all can go home,
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 30, 2009 - 07:12pm PT
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no-thing is something
Without zero you would not be able to be on the computer.
That zero will be your 1000 lifetimes puzzle ....
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 30, 2009 - 07:17pm PT
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"That depends on what the definition of is is."
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jbar
Ice climber
Russia with love.
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Jan 30, 2009 - 08:32pm PT
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Someone on here cited Charles Darwin as being the "most important scientist". I could easily argue that point. What is more aggravating is how people twist and spin to create something in the shape of their own personal views. How can ANYONE actually read darwin's books and then try to use him as evidence there is no GOD? After reading On The Origin Of Species I was left wondering why there aren't millions of observable new evolutionary organisms being formed today? Why is the earth limited to the tunicate?
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 30, 2009 - 08:34pm PT
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Ha! If there can be no such thing as nothing then how can there be no such thing? Isn't no such thing nothing? And didn't you just tell me that there's no such thing as nothing?
I tell you these religious things always come back on themselves. I agree we can't know.
That's why agnosticism is the only reasonable conclusion.
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jbar
Ice climber
Russia with love.
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Jan 30, 2009 - 08:38pm PT
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I believe Paul is confusing Agnosticism with Athiesm again. His views are clearly Athiestic. He does not believe in the possibility of God's existence. Agnostics are a "show me" group. They do not deny the existence of God completely.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 30, 2009 - 08:42pm PT
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roehl -- "I agree we can't know."
Not we ---- YOU, since all you do is sit in your chair and speculate.
You ever even try to climb to the "summit"?
No, you climb half way, and then say there's no summit I have seen everything.
You give up way too easy ......
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jbar
Ice climber
Russia with love.
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Jan 30, 2009 - 08:52pm PT
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I have so many questions I would like to be answered by the scientist of the group. I have always studied and been fasciniated by science yet never found these answers.
Do wild animals have a conscience? Why haven't any animals besides man learned to use fire, electricity, etc? Are wild animals self aware? Where does knowledge of self come from in man? Is it transferred in the DNA of the sperm? I'm not talking philosophy or Freudian "I want to sleep with my mother" quackery. I'm talking good, solid science. If I could find the answer to these questions in science I would no longer believe in God.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 30, 2009 - 08:56pm PT
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You've got me confused with someone else I never said the existence of god is not possible. I said it's impossible to know one way or the other. Speculation is all we have all else is self deception.
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jbar
Ice climber
Russia with love.
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Jan 30, 2009 - 09:06pm PT
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I may be wrong but reading your posts I never get the feeling that there is even a possibility in your mind that a God could exist. You seem to argue vehemently against such an idiom and have even suggest that it is not intelligent to believe in God. Many scientist do, in fact, believe in God or a creator and I find it dissapointing that today's "intellects" find it necessary to profess unbelief. Frankly I think little fish stickers with feet on an automobile professes ignorance.
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