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dirtbag
climber
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Jan 23, 2009 - 12:18pm PT
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"Yes, and Obama is not half-stupid enough to do all of the things you guys want him to do. He just has to find ways to stick pacifiers in your mouths while doing what he needs to do. He will close Gitmo and ban torture but he won't actually cut any of them loose. There will be much fanfare about the whole thing. Photo ops, speeches, front page stories and the like. Hopefully, then you will all shut up and move on to the next issue where he will once again have to appease you guys while not actually doing anything stupid. "
Lois, following the rule of law, like he should do, is not stupid.
You voted for Bush twice: you know, the guy who set up this FUBAR facility in the first place.
So don't lecture me about stupidity.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jan 23, 2009 - 12:31pm PT
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"Obama will keep the good stuff and cast away the bad stuff but the only the problem is you guys and your ever vociferous raucous. In your ever present Bush-dysphoric syndrome, you all will want him to do stuff which he knows better than to enact. He has to find ways to talk-up your game while still doing what is right for the country - some of which will be to support or continue what Bush did."
All I am asking is that he follow the law. Free those against whom there is little evidence, free others agaisnt whom there is no chance in hell of prosecuting (THANKS TO BUSH's TORTURE!), and try the others.
You think that's stupid?
Well, whatever. I happen to think following the law is pretty f*#king important for our leaders to do.
This is something your man Bush failed to do.
And Bush is not gone: not by a longshot. We have a new Sherriff in town, but Bush's sh#t stains will take years to clean up.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 23, 2009 - 12:39pm PT
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I remember not so very long ago when the USofA stood for the rule of law and not the law of rulelessness that the Bush administration plunged us into.
I ask you to re consider the bombing of Pan Am flight 103 over Lockerbie. Our intelligence agencies had a strong suspicion of who was to blame. War hawks demanded swift and brutal retaliation. BUT, we spent years in extensive forensic investigation before we had incontrovertible evidence that Libya was the perpetrator.
That process gave justification to US bloodying their noses. Since then they have made a 180 degree turn around. We let the rule of law guide our actions and in that case we were correct. Mass arrests and abuse of detainees that those at the top assumed were guilty is very Un-American. Our system requires no less than indisputable proof. Not vengeful retribution based on week assumptions.
Lois, what Bush did is not over simply because he is back in Crawford choking down pretzels. He is the one who released a detainee who returned to the fold. Bash him! Don't make lame suppositions about Obama's dilemma. Bush is the one who tanked our economy and destroyed our standing in the world. Bush is the one who through his policies and actions caused mass recruitment of new terrorists. Bush is who made us less safe. Get off Obama's ass and put the responsibility where it belongs UP George.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 23, 2009 - 12:45pm PT
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"However, I seriously doubt that we are going to be seeing any of them turned loose."
Lois, even the Bush administration turned hundreds and hundreds of Gitmo "detainees" loose.
Why? It became too obvious that many were guilty of nothing and were merely turned in for US reward money or to get rid of tribal rivals or folks somebody owed money to.
Which may partly still be the case which should negate Skip's crocodile tears remark. There have been LOTS of totally innocent people locked up in Gitmo, even by the the Military's admission, and many of the "guilty" ones aren't terrorist but only fighting a foreign invader just like you would if somebody invaded the US.
So yeah, if you get somebody, not-guilty or half-guilty, lock em up for 8 years, torture em, and then let em go without apology or respect, some will be pissed.
What's your alternative? It's like shooting the pedestrian you hit while drunk drunk driving. Can't risk them seeking revenge eh?
Peace
Karl
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jan 23, 2009 - 01:05pm PT
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I think the reason for these detentions is even more subtle, skip. During war, POW's remain in custody, without charges, until the duration of the conflict. This conflict is different. While a group of people has commited acts of war against the United States, that group of people is not a sovereign state, has no regular army, is not a signatory to the Geneva Convention, and does not recognize or follow the rules of modern warfare. What do we do when we capture people fighting for their side?
These facts have led to the differences in legal opinions and extralegal perceptions. I think the perception of the world matters, but I also think the world will never love us as long as we are the only superpower. I'll take that tradeoff. Others on this board won't.
There is, though, one other issue that transcends Guantanimo, interrogation rules, and everything else. There is a substantial number of comments on this thread seeking to criminalize policy and political differences. Dictatorships do that. Pluralistic republics do not. This issue has enough complexity that reasonable (as opposed to narrow-minded) people can differ on their conclusions. Reasoned disagreement belongs in the national discussion. The heavy, blunt, hammer of criminal repression does not.
John
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jstan
climber
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Jan 23, 2009 - 01:18pm PT
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"You know,
I have a real hard time with those that keep saying it is all about how people look at us when we do things.
If this were true we would never have been attacked on 9/11, before we water boarded 3 people.
I think we should turn this idea around and get them to worry about what we will do if they attack us again.
You all seem to miss this point.
Skip"
Good post Skip.
But before 9/11 many people in Saudi Arabia looked at us as a people whose corporations are encouraged to make special back room deals and steal from them the resources, which when once gone, will leave them with nothing to eat. Or whose undercover agencies destroyed their elected government and imposed a leader upon them. We have to be careful and realize our perceptions of us are different from that held by others.
The water boarding is most damaging in that it clearly confirms what they have perceived all along.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 23, 2009 - 01:37pm PT
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Oh pull-ease.
You are so sure that Obama called in a strike.
Do you suppose that the military planners already had this strike on the books?
Or is it more important to divert the reality?
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dirtbag
climber
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Jan 23, 2009 - 01:44pm PT
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Me too, Fatty.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Jan 23, 2009 - 01:50pm PT
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I'm thinking.... the story of the gggggitmo detainee who is alleged to have gone to do Al-queda work after being released, and the Pakistan strike are bullshit attempts by the GOP seeking to discredit our new president. Heaven forBID that Obama's efforts win over then last of their constituency....
If true, I'd just like to remind them of the old child's saying: "I'm rubber and you're glue. Everything you say bounces off me and sticks right back to you!"
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 23, 2009 - 01:54pm PT
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AFTER PROVEN GUILTY IN A COURT OF LAW Lois NOT BEFORE!
Assumptions of guilt are wrong. Just like assumptions of intelligence or good intentions can be.
You assume Bush and company had good intelligence and good intentions. I very much doubt that they did.
We MUST remain a nation of laws.
Hey Happiegirl how about; "sticks and stones may break my bones but torture really gets my goat".
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dirtbag
climber
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Jan 23, 2009 - 01:54pm PT
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Lame, Lois.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Jan 23, 2009 - 02:08pm PT
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How would someone like Lois feel if their spouse was hauled off, abducted from the house at night, and they had no way of contacting them. For six years....
They get in a snarkfest on a website; and piss off the wrong person. So that pissed off person puts in a call to the "If You See Something, Say Something Hotline" (toll free; dial 1-800-Be-A-Narc) and just like that....Gggggone to GgggggITMO!
Lois appeals to the website "Help me! My husband is innocent!"
Alas, nobody listens....Believing that he wouldn't be detained if he didn't do SOMETHING, it's better to be safe than possibly sorry.
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GDavis
Trad climber
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Jan 23, 2009 - 02:18pm PT
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Its just an empty gesture to the far left. The CIA will still do what it needs to do to keep our country safe, as they have done, as they always do.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jan 23, 2009 - 02:18pm PT
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Uh, yeah, Happie, they were captured in combat...not taken out of their houses as innocent people.
Try again.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jan 23, 2009 - 02:19pm PT
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But no thanks to Bush, Fatty. Bush wanted a US Citizen, Padilla, deemed an enemy combatant so they could subject him to the stuff that went on at Guantanamo.
It's that kind of executive power that scares the sh#t out of me: that could've happened to any one of us based on a whim, bad information, or political expediency.
And we would sit in prison and rot without any kind of review because according to Bush, habeas corpus wouldn't apply.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jan 23, 2009 - 02:21pm PT
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It's funny how a lot of supposed government-hating, law and order conservatives were willing to trust Bush to do the right thing and respect civil liberties, in spite of all the evidence that he was doing exactly the opposite
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
somewhere without avatars.........
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Jan 23, 2009 - 02:23pm PT
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It really saddens me how many of you just don't get it. How many of you do not understand holding yourself to a higher principle/ethic rather than sinking to the level of those who would do you harm. Seems to me that terrorism, rather than democracy, is about retaliation. True democracy anyhow, rather than what the U.S. now defines as democracy, which is being force-fed down the throats of those who really have no choice, in much the same fashion as Christianity was.
It just seems to me that so many Americans these days lack the self respect and dignity to be better. To be who we're supposed to be and, more importantly, whom we claim to be in the face of the rest of the world. We've simply become the wolf in sheep's clothing.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jan 23, 2009 - 02:37pm PT
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"db,
And our system, under Bush, worked, Padilla is still rotting in a US cell. Bush, I'd trust him a little, but I also trust my friend who is still an Asst. Sec of Def. "
Bullsh#t.
Bush broke the law. Period.
How can he strip someone of his citizenship then throw him in jail without judicial review? Show me where he had the authority to unilaterally do it.
You guys keep saying that foreign combatants were the only ones sent to Guantanamo. This is plainly wrong. Padilla's case could've happen to anyone: you, me, anyone.. Don't you get it?
And Bush would've continued to do such things had the courts not intervened.
Bush abused his power, broke the law, and set dangerous precedents for those who seek tyranny.
You guys can't see it. Your fear is blinding you.
We may not know how Iraq pans out for many years. But I'll tell you one thing, his PISSING on the Constitution and our legal principles is one aspect of his legacy that we can already judge.
BTW, for those who say the judicial system is ill-equiped to convict terrorists, well, Padilla is in prison after being convicted in such a system.
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jstan
climber
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Jan 23, 2009 - 03:26pm PT
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Had not George invoked "Freedom Fries" in a fit of pique, he might have been able to negotiate with the French regarding Devil's Island.
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