Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Licky
Social climber
California
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 11, 2005 - 11:00pm PT
|
It appears that Chainsaw has calmed down as everyone else. I have to say I appreciate both the support and the level headedness that most used during this past flame (out).
Just an up date for those that have been following this thread.
I've just recieved a CD containing photos of the crash site. These images were taken by the investigating crew and are now public domain. Very interesting stuff. Some of the images show the lake with holes cut into it with chainsaws. Who0 would have thunked?
|
|
chainsaw
Trad climber
CA
|
|
|
Jun 14, 2005 - 04:14pm PT
|
Interesting, I just got an email from a howard who says he is forwarding my post about jupiter to the sherrif dept. so much for your fantasy of open conversations...I told you this would happen! I really dont care what he does since it is all just rumor...be careful what you say....there are others watching. And it is amazing how well a bit of fantasy misinformation threw everybody off the trail of JL and LH. I guess my plan worked, although it sucks being the one to take a fall for the team. That is always my job. I guess that is why I am the coach.
|
|
Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
|
|
|
Jun 14, 2005 - 05:46pm PT
|
I lost track of this thread but glossed through it just now and wonder how the thing heated up so. I lost interest in the whole plane thing not because it wasn't interesting at the time, but because it happened nearly 30 years ago. It's over, done, finished. And I quite smoking weed before my firt daughter was born--17 years ago--so the weed thing is now about as romantic as bong water.
It was exciting then, but the thing bores the sh#t our of me now . . .
JL
|
|
Licky
Social climber
California
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 14, 2005 - 09:20pm PT
|
Rokjox...great stuff! As for people feeling hesitant to want to talk, I can understand that. This is why I'm telling those that do want to talk to us, we'll do it any way they want. Hell, if they want to put it on an etch-a-sketch just to make sure it can be erased...that's cool too. As I've said, we won't be using names anyway.
And for Chainsaw. Well, guy, all I can say is if you post bullsh#t, you'll sooner or later have to clean it up or as Rokjox points out, edit quickly. I know who the guy is that sent you that email. I'd say you'll probably be having your own interviews in the near future. Me(?), I'm still talking about 30 years ago, not today.
Enough on that boring subject.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Jun 14, 2005 - 09:56pm PT
|
Interesting ...... as chainsaw only posts here about this airoplane bullsh#t. Always trying to stir up some more sh_it.
Gives a real good clue to ......
|
|
Licky
Social climber
California
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 14, 2005 - 10:24pm PT
|
Chainsaw, I think you are being disingenuous to everyone who reads this thread. Why not post the email that "Howard" sent you? Then everyone will know what his real concern is.
|
|
Licky
Social climber
California
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 16, 2005 - 01:06am PT
|
Rokjox, I understand how you feel. I am however on lead on this one, out of choice, mine. Free and clean.
|
|
swami
climber
|
|
|
Jun 17, 2005 - 09:05am PT
|
Jack's death has bothered me for 28 years due to these 2 pieces of information. First, I knew Jack and had a long talk with him approx. a week before he died. He told me he had gone into the cockpit and retrieved a notebook and a bag of coke. He had looked at the notebook and was scared shitless at what he had found due to the high profile names of the investors. He expressed the fear that if it got known that he had the book he was as good as dead. The second piece of info was another friend who didn't know jack was this; he was a vietnam vet, rough around the edges who in making a visit to the va hospital in the bay area was approached by an acquaintance and told that some people were very interested in retrieving the notebook and a hit was out for whoever had it. Shortly thereafter Jack died. I'm sorry but I think Jack was murdered.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Jun 17, 2005 - 12:44pm PT
|
“I'm sorry but I think Jack was murdered.”
Highly speculative hypotheses. The so called murderer would have had to be on scene during that YOSAR incident. So called murderer would have to have known the subtle layout of the Yosemite Falls Trail due to the time Jack was killed, at night. He would have had to know exactly the best places where to make it look like a accident. Not something a murderer would be able to think or plan out because of the nature of rescues. They happen at any time, anywhere, with too many witnesses around. Not a murdering type plan at all, no secrecy.
Remember, Jack had been drinking heavily that night ………….
|
|
swami
climber
|
|
|
Jun 17, 2005 - 04:28pm PT
|
Since I am not privy to the accident investigation that was done following Jack's death I don't know his level of ontoxication. I do know the one spot on the trail that someone could fall quite easily to their death. It is not such a tripping hazard that the park service has put a railing or wall up nor has anyone else tripped and fallen to their death that I am aware of. For Jack to fall at that exact spot I would imagine that he would have been stumbling quite heavily in many other parts of the trail that are much more uneven. In my mind that would mean he would have been going quite a bit slower than the rest of the team and perhaps lagging far behind. If I remember correctly there were no witnesses to his fall and it was some time before it was discovered what had happened to him. It is hard to imagine someone in camp 4 watching Jack for the chance to off him yet if they were, that was the perfect opportunity to follow behind him and at the right moment nudge him gently into the void. I would be interested to know if the SAR team was interviewed to ascertain Jacks condition leading up to his death and his level of inebriation. Perhaps it was divine intervention that led him to take that fall but given what I stated previously I am far less than certain that it was an accident. Jack was a decent enough human being that he deserves a thorough investigation as to the events that led up to his death.
|
|
Licky
Social climber
California
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 17, 2005 - 11:13pm PT
|
There was two groups that were interested in the "Black Book." The Feds because it could implicate "partners" as well as Pam. The other was Pam's attorney at the time. He came in from out of town in an attempt to find out information as to where the book was. It would have been advantageous from a defense stand point to have the book magically disappear.
The book ended up in the Reno Nevada office of the DEA. I have a copy of the letter from the legal office of the Department of the Interior written to Pam's attorney. They give an explanation as to the where abouts of the book. I also have a copy of the pilot's death certificate. It speaks volumes about what may or may not have contributed to the crash.
I realize that for some, or for many, the idea of the mysterious black book and all of the bad juju surrounding it helps magnify the legend(s) surrounding this incident. Right now I'm not going to spend a lot of time dispelling most of them. I think it will be more dramatic when the entire picture is presented in our book. So for now, I think speculation on many of these issues is healthy. Hell, it gives me a chance to hear that one person say something that tells me "yep, you were there weren't you?"
Largo, kinda like the bong story...yes/no?
|
|
Ahwahnee Bartender
Big Wall climber
Fog Town
|
|
|
Jun 17, 2005 - 11:32pm PT
|
A side bar to comments regarding Jack's death or more aptly a related question for Werner. WB: A good friend of mine died on the falls trail at night during a SAR. I think it was the year after Jack's death as I remember it as 1976 but it could of been 1977. He was a lanky/skinny blonde headed kid and I remember his name as Steve. I think he worked with me at the Ahwahnee that summer.
Do you remember a second death on the falls trail during a SAR around that time period? I just recall being shocked that he had died when the following day all my friends told me he walked off the trail at night during a rescue. Appreciate the info if you remember, Theo
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Jun 17, 2005 - 11:49pm PT
|
A good friend of mine died on the falls trail at night during a SAR.
Yosar has had only one fatality ever, Jack Dorn.
This is the account from "Accidents in Mountain Rescue Operations"
Experienced rescuer walks off the trail and falls to his death
On May 23, 1977, two climbers, Larry Day (26) and Donald Evans (23), began an attempt to climb the Yosemite Buttress in Yosemite National Park. Although they each had some experience, neither was prepared for bad weather or an overnight bivouac. The two climbers stumbled up the route, and as rain fell, their problems increased. Ultimately, Evans fell and injured himself, and Day called for help. He was told that rescuers would be coming in the morning.
Six rescuers started walking up an established trail up Yosemite Falls trail at 3:30 a.m. the following morning in search of the ill-prepared rock climbers who had cried out in the dark. For an unknown reason, Yosemite volunteer Jack Dorn walked off a well-worn path and plunged 400-600 feet to his death. He had been wearing a portable tape player at the time of the accident.
|
|
Licky
Social climber
California
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 18, 2005 - 12:20am PT
|
WB, that is exactly how Butch F. related the story to me personally. And, he too was there.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Jun 18, 2005 - 12:26am PT
|
Sh-it, Butch was just here about a month or so ago and I forgot to talk to him about this.
|
|
Licky
Social climber
California
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 18, 2005 - 12:40am PT
|
He just sent me a DVD of his presentation in the Valley. Complete with Nevada Barr's narrative and his dissertation on what he calls "Dope Lake." All of his photos from the scene, even a shot of him wearing his Tee Shirt! Great stuff.
|
|
Licky
Social climber
California
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 25, 2005 - 11:19pm PT
|
For those that are semi-following this thread, I thought a little up date might be in order. I want to first thank those that have either called or emailed me with their stories. Many, more than fifteen now have agreed to tell their stories to me personally and quite a few others are doing so via email or phone. As you can well imagine, the stories are a mix of some pretty great stuff, and also repeats. It appears that if everyone didn't go up together on the same day, they sure did it over a fairly short and swift period of time. Probably made a well worn route. I'd not be surprised if after the book is published that a marked trail of some sort might all of a sudden appear. Suggest a name for the route and we might use it.
I may have found one of original Tee Shirts in good condition. I suggested to the owner that he hang on to it until after the book is published. He's going to send photos of it shortly.
GWB called and said he recalled having a nasty cough back then. Never did figure out what gave it to him. I guess it got around.LOL
Stay tuned, but I'll not bore people with daily up dates.
Thanks again to everyone...its greatly appreciated!
|
|
Blitzo
Social climber
Earth
|
|
|
Jun 27, 2005 - 02:48pm PT
|
Licky, Your book is a wonderful idea.
I was living in the Valley then, but never made it to the Lake.
I haven't made it through all the replies on this page yet, so this topic may have already been covered.
There was a rumor that the Tool found a suitecase full of cocaine. Did it exist? What happened to it? Does anyone know?
Blitzo
P.S. I have one of those shirts somewhere. When I find it I'll send you a photo. I have the "GO JUMP IN THE LAKE" shirt, not the original "I GOT MINE"
|
|
Licky
Social climber
California
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 27, 2005 - 09:05pm PT
|
Imagine a case full of coke sitting in a mountain lake from a day to as long as a few weeks. I'd be afraid of stepping in the water lest my feet would go to sleep.
On the other hand, if "Tool" wants to get a hold of me via phone/email addy I'm sure we can both confirm nor deny to what was there. Always makes for some good adventure...js
A photo of the shirt would be great! Thanks in advance.
By the way. One of the four original guys that found the plane wreck was named John Freeman. He and his wife both worked in the park back then. John died 10 years ago. I'd love to get ahold of either his wife or any of the other three that were with him. If anyone knew these people, please pass my personal contact info on to them.
Tanks
|
|
Blitzo
Social climber
Earth
|
|
|
Jun 27, 2005 - 09:12pm PT
|
The Tool is not a person. It is Law enforcement, Feds, whatever. The ones who spoil everyone's fun!
P.S. Jack Dorn and I pounded beers together. He could go the distance! He was a good man.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!