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toluene*brainblow
Social climber
bag of toxic vapors
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Oct 27, 2005 - 01:37am PT
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Apparently NOT. Werner's got a huge one. And I'm NOT refering to his dick.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Oct 27, 2005 - 01:52am PT
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In response to the lastest posts about Wings, I do appreciate the charitable tone very much. I would like to clarify a few points about our attitudes, since some posts are now alluding to that aspect of things.
I won't speak for Mark on these matters, although I know how he feels too. Hopefully, he'll post on this subject also. For myself, I can say that I was a timid child, climbing showed me my character flaws, and climbing has always been a discipline for me to continue to address those flaws. I hope this doesn't sound too "religious" or "metaphysical," because what I'm trying to express is really pretty simple. Basically, I've always been a chickensh#t, that defect has always threatened to run my life, even in everyday affairs, and climbing has been an ongoing means by which to keep the chicken at bay in my life as much as possible.
So, I have NEVER thought of myself or my climbing as worthy of special attention, or "bitchen" or anything like that. Now, I'm not trying to "sound humble" (thereby revealing pride). I think I've come to a fairly balanced view of myself (I should have by now, since I'm 46 and have a Ph.D. in philosophy!). I know I have done some noteworthy things, but MANY others have done FAR more noteworthy things! The Bird on Cerro Torre, for example, which is just ONE of his many awesome feats. When I say I've always climbed "for myself," I mean that climbing for me has been primarily FOR confronting the deep black hole in my soul.
What is the point of "hard" anyway? Why is "harder" a valuable attribue of climbing routes (all other things being equal)? I think it is what makes climbing superior to all other sports. Hard climbing has an element of very intentional risk, and that risk-taking is moment-by-moment and in your face in a way that jumping out of a plane, for example, is not. Now, I'm not dissing other extreme sports. All I'm saying is that climbing has for me allowed, even encouraged, a level of inner contemplation that has been simply amazing. I can look at a placement and have the time to think, "If this thing blows, I'm probably dead. Am I up for dead right now?" And then I get to think through the meaning of life, and so on (which might explain why Mark and I are so damned slow--we're contemplating more than we're climbing). :-)
Anyway, I think Wings was a great route... for Mark and I, because it did for us JUST what we both needed at that time. Like Mark, I think the route is reasonably repeatable and has other valuable attributes for the climbing community, and we DID care about the quality of the route we put up. However, it is also true that thinking about other's perceptions of the route was VERY secondary to me (I'm a fairly selfish climber insofar as I do it FOR that internal dialog)... that is until everything erupted the way it did. Then, suddenly, what everybody else thought became very important.
But for me, the route has always been the same in my mind, and some of the "great" things about that route were VERY private at the time, like looking a yet another micro-flake and thinking, "CRAP! Isn't it about time for another rivet? Do I HAVE to try that thing? I'm SICK of falling! CRAAAAPPP! But, it's there, so I have to stand on it." And then forcing myself to give the flake a try. And that FORCING is, for me, the essence of climbing--forcing myself to not ACT like the chickenshit I fundamentally am inside!
I also LOVE just being up there. It is like being on another planet. Everything is so RAW and real. Watching a falcon fly slowly past, almost close enough to touch... and then seeing a falcon stoop down the wall, sounding like a dreaded falling rock... such things are simply awesome. Maybe part of why I'm slower than most is just that I don't have any great sense of hurry. I know that's how a wall is going to be for me, so I bring enough stuff to be able to take my time. I like to quit early some days, just watch the colors change on the rocks, watch the little red mites scurrying around, and just BE THERE. I HOPE there are some of you out there who are not so jaded by the endless push that "faster is better" that you cannot resonate with what I'm describing.
At a very fundamental level, I see no greatness in any of the climbing I have done. That's just not what it has ever been about to me. I love the being there, yet, on hard climbs I also always feel a sort of desperation, and the chicken is always threatening to win! Knowing myself as I do, there's nothing "bitchen" about it. I don't have genuine courage... I have merely developed a strong will.
Wings was hard for me; it might not be hard for somebody else. That sort of thing is a very subjective evaluation. However, I guess the point of this forum topic HAS been to discuss as best we can the OBJECTIVE features of the route, and we have always told the truth about those! For me, I'm just always trying to not act like a chickensh#t--I don't know what others will find on Wings of Steel.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Oct 27, 2005 - 01:59am PT
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That's a very cool post. I think we can all relate to your perspective there in some way.
I especialy like this quote!
"If this thing blows, I'm probably dead. Am I up for dead right now?"
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Oct 27, 2005 - 02:29am PT
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Lambone, I have NO problem with your posts... let me get that out right up front. Of course, I don't know you at all, so I can't speak to some of the things others are saying about you....
I'm not SURE that we did the second ascent of Intifada, although I'm not SURE that I have hands either. But, I'm reasonably confident. I think we did the route two or three months after the second of the two Climbing mag articles about the route; Mark is more detail-oriented, so he probably knows exactly, and I don't remember for sure about that. But it was shortly thereafter, and the route hadn't had a published second at time of publication.
Trust me, I don't take calling someone a liar lightly, and I'm not calling Beyer a liar about the angle holes. I don't know who drilled them. However, Jack Herer suggests that Beyer claims there were no holes deeper than 1/4-inch, and that simply isn't true, regardless of the drilled angles. But, that's not the reason I called Beyer a liar--all his major claims about the route are flagrantly false. So, my point was simply to say that Beyer has no credibility in my mind about ANY claims he makes about the route, including whether or not he drilled any angle holes. He has lied about other things and been caught in the lies, so he is the prime suspect in my mind about the angle holes as well.
It is true that somebody else MIGHT have gotten up the route before Mark and I, although it's unclear to me why they wouldn't have said anything about that (of course, unless they are hiding a rape). I only know that Mark and I didn't drill the angle holes, and my "liar" comments were reserved for Beyer's PUBLISHED claims about the route that are clearly false.
Nobody likes being called a liar, that's for sure. So, it's best not to lie, and then you don't risk getting caught in a lie. I believe in giving people ALL the benefit of the doubt UNTIL I catch them misrepresenting or lying--people did NOT treat Mark and I that way regarding Wings, and THAT is my complaint regarding being called and treated like a liar. But, I've never published crap, either.
Regarding your "stylistic" posts, I'm not even sure what "style" means anymore. The issues most hotly debated about Wings of Steel had to do with things other than "style" as I tend to think about it. The issues seemed to be about quite objective facts: bat hooks? a route we chopped behind ourselves? "a thousand bolts to Horse Chute?" a "two hundred yard streak of feces and trash" below our bivies? And so on. People have "deduced" opinions about our "style" from their take on these "facts," and so it seems to me that the "stylistic" issues are really just inferences from factual issues. Regarding almost all of the "facts," our critics have been in error, and SOME of them have intentionally spread as "facts" that which they KNEW were in error.
If by "style" we're talking about taking a LONG time to work out an intricate and apparently "blank" line, then I can certainly understand why many would decry such a "style". I have no problem with that at all. I am a philosopher by trade, so I relish an open and reasonable (even "heated," but with emphasis on "reasonable") discussion about "style" and ethics. But, if you read the early posts on this forum topic, you find "style" conflated with ridiculous "factual" claims. Mark and I have tried to set the record straight about the actual facts, so maybe a discussion of "style" can be more productive now... but I would love to have "style" defined first of all.
Thanks for your posts!
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Oct 27, 2005 - 02:55am PT
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"a route we chopped behind ourselves?"
is the only thing I had ever heard about Wings of Steel before this thread. I though that was quite odd and egotistical...or something...it almost made me angry.
Glad to hear that is not true.
I still don't know if I'd ever attempt a route of that sort, but it does sound like exiting climbing. And it sounds like you wen't by the old moto, "if it holds I have to use it." hooking your way up that thing, and that is prowd style for sure.
I wasn't there in those days, but I can easily imagine being in the meadow looking up at your big camp wondering what the heck you were doing up there...kinda like Chongos hanging monstrosity on the Sea several years ago. I can see how the rumors would start flying.
As far as Beyer, closest I came to him was seeing some of his handy work up on Zodiac two years ago...a bunch of bolts beat with a hammer. While I agreed that the bolts ddn't belong there, I didn't see much good in bashing them into a pulp and leaving the mess behind. Trying to make some sort of statement I guess...
Anyway, cheers
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ricardo
Gym climber
San Francisco, CA
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Oct 27, 2005 - 03:11am PT
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matt ..
only reason i posted that comment was because these dudes have already had enogh questions lunged at them .. -- its time to give them some props for what sounds to me like a ballsy f*#ken route ..
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Oct 27, 2005 - 03:15am PT
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I didn't ask them any questions dude...
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Gunkie
climber
East Coast US
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 27, 2005 - 10:02am PT
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I'd like to preface this post with: Not me!
So, who's going to do the second ascent?
I know this thread must have gotten some of the hardcore wall masters revved up a little bit. I think it would exciting just knowing some folks are taking a shot at it. I'm thinking the weather window may be too far over the horizon for this season. Maybe next October, early? Cooler temps, historically dry time of the year, looks easy to retreat the slab in case of another October 2004 type of storm...
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KarlP
Social climber
Queensland, NorCal, Iceland
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Oct 27, 2005 - 12:04pm PT
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anyone got a revised link to Mr Falkensteins images?
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Burt
climber
Sin City
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Oct 27, 2005 - 01:11pm PT
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Ammon go send man! Nobody likes the hooks like our boy Amdog! Sounds like a sick route, nothing like hooking for days on a slab! Yikes! Nice route your guys and I hope that some people might finally see that.
Burt
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Ammon
Big Wall climber
Lake Arrowhead
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Oct 27, 2005 - 04:47pm PT
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Cool. It’s nice to see the first ascentionists posting up. Like I said, I only know what I've "heard" and see from the topo. I wasn't around at the time either.
Did you guys draw the topo? Is that the best one available in the Donny Reid book?
I guess there's nothing left to do but go up there and see first hand what it's all about, huh?
Cheers, Ammon
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Oct 27, 2005 - 05:03pm PT
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What makes most any movement actually move in a more enlightened direction is that folks in said movement are fluent with, and to some extent, part of, previous phases of the movement. Especially in a technical sport like aid climbing, a person and the sport is best served by someone who goes out tryng to establish new routes to have first proved themselves on a whole stack of established routes--otherwise, you end up with throw-away efforts that completely go against the grain of what's acceptable and what is not.
I might be wrong, but the authors of Wings of Steel were not big wall veterans of much experience. hey surely must have done at least the Nose and Column and Leaning Tower and so forth; but I suspec had they taken the time to repeat a handful of the hard aid lines of the day, Wings of Steel would have looked different. As is I have to wonder what it contributed of the history of wall climbing. And moreover, if El Capitan could talk, what would they have said of the route and those who put it up??
JL
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pc
Trad climber
Thousand Oaks, CA
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Oct 27, 2005 - 05:25pm PT
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That's the usual model but what if...
For example Charlie Parker, great great sax player, who showed up on the scene in the 30's playing very "wild stuff". He wasn't accepted for that but stuck around and "conformed" for a while...Then gradually started doing his own thing again. This time it was accepted and well respected. What does that say about Charlie's early work? Still brilliant but out of progression?
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Oct 27, 2005 - 05:42pm PT
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One crucial point about Yardbird Parker--he didn't come from nowhere. He was very much part of the prevailing movement BEFORE he started doing things his own way.
For the record (the floowing is cribbed from athe web), Parker had his first music lessons in the local public schools; he began playing alto saxophone in 1933 and worked in semi-professional groups before leaving school in 1935 to become a full-time musician. From 1935 to 1939, he worked mainly in Kansas City with a wide variety of local blues and jazz groups. Like most jazz musicians of his time, he developed his craft largely through practical experience: listening to older local jazz masters, acquiring a traditional repertory, and learning through the process of trial and error in the competitive Kansas City bands and jam sessions.
The key here is that Parker "acquired a traditional repertory," meaning he was fluent on what was going on. Once he mastered the accepted way of doing things, THEN he moved beyond it.
My question is whether or not the guys who authored Wings of Steel had ever mastered or even acquired a "traditional repertory."
JL
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pc
Trad climber
Thousand Oaks, CA
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Oct 27, 2005 - 05:53pm PT
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True. I'm just counter modelling here. Let's assert that some of Parker's early solos were "distasteful" to his peers and the masses because they'd never heard stuff like that before. Once he'd hung for awhile and played with the "in" crowd, they began to appreciate his style, etc. Doesn't that imply that you/they could go back and "re-appreciate" his early solo work?
As an artist/musician I like looking at things with a fresh perspective. Sometimes if you only look at something once you've built the standard "tools of the trade" you aren't open to the same leaps.
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pc
Trad climber
Thousand Oaks, CA
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Oct 27, 2005 - 05:55pm PT
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BTW I love the Bird connection here...
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jeff benowitz
climber
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Oct 27, 2005 - 05:56pm PT
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John, John, John what is with this juvenile logic from someone with your educational background in the history of climbing. I would point out that the blokes made the fifth ascent of sea of dreams, but its not relevant. What is relevant is the fact that some people are trend setters. For example, Jed Kallen Brown, a 20 year old kid, climbed a new route on kichatna spire for his first wall. Is that a shame, should he have climbed the south face of the column first? My third wall was the second ascent of Jesus built my hotrod. We didn't own a drill than and don't own one now. should we as kids not have been allowed to climb the route cause it was hard? or should we commend people for climbing beyond there experience? was Einstein part of a movement? or did he work in a patent office when he came up with his ground break ideas about relativity? You can knock someone for a drill job, but since you nor I have done the route, we don't really know what kind of drilling was done. But to knock someone for doing something hard before there "time" is poor at best and stupid at worst. Your bit gives the impression the blokes did something unacceptable, yet you fail to mention what, which doesn't give them a chance to defend themselves. What's the beef? IE spell it out John. What did they do on wings of steel that was unacceptable to you? How do you know they did it? If your purely twisted because they didn't do what you though was enough hard routes first, do you have a list that I should climb before I put up a first in Yosemite? which I've done-without once again carrying a bolt kit-can you saint john holder of the philosphy torch claim that you put a big wall in Yosemite without even bringing a bolt kit? Those who have not sinned should cast the first bolt or some such.......
on a side note. hey ammon, hope all is well, missed you in august, getting surgery over christmas, so see you around the stone(s) in the future.
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Landgolier
climber
the flatness
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Oct 27, 2005 - 06:08pm PT
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Now THIS is a thread.
Ammon, if you do make a run at it, I have it on good authority that a list of guys who are willing to help hump loads to the base is posted near the left side of the screen on this very thread.
('cept me, I'll be in Red Rocks)
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mike hartley
climber
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Oct 27, 2005 - 07:17pm PT
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Scanning my collection of quotes for an unrelated reason and came across this gem, which seems fitting for this thread:
There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance – that principle is contempt before investigation. Herbert Spencer
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wildone
climber
right near the beach, boyeee (lord have mercy)
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Oct 27, 2005 - 07:21pm PT
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True. And I want some "El Cap Pics" of the send.
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