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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Chatsworth
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 2, 2005 - 04:28pm PT
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I think religions and humans like souls because it takes away the fear of - is this all I get, or all their is? Why people blindly buy into religions without giving it some thought. They want to believe. If you want to believe, it is very easy to believe in anything, even souls.
I frankly could careless if this is the only ride.
Thats why I like Buddha - He wants to end my suffering now.
If it is the only ride, what a very interesting ride.
Sometimes quite painfull, but other time way pleasurable.
Parts of the ride make no !@#$%^& sense at all.
I think it all has equaled out.
Souls - We maybe, maybe not. I have no way to know either way, if I am going to be logical about it.
I still think I somehow got placed on the wrong !@#$%^& planet.
I was to be on the planet with flying cars.
Oh well. I have to leave this lab now and go to Stoney.
Then its a nice steak at Outback.
Ankle at 76%.
Climbing skill - 5.8b, but maybe three pigs will fly today?
Juan "Just how did the Coyote get into the !@#$%^& tent?" De Fuca
I am the Coyote.
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WBraun
climber
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You seem to even contradict Buddha, Sri Narayana,
Even the Buddha said this was not the only ride ......
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Chatsworth
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 2, 2005 - 04:40pm PT
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I know that, but why was Buddha so sure?
Juan "Finally waking up" De Prowsolo
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WBraun
climber
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He was a bonafide incarnation of the lord.
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WBraun
climber
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Now Klaus you moved this post
Anyways it's Albert Hofmann, who did extensive research on psilocybin.
Whata ya gettin at man ........?
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Chatsworth
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 2, 2005 - 04:58pm PT
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So I have to just take Buddha as an expert witness on souls, and believe what he says.
I observe the external world with my brain, from observations I draw conclussions. I have observed nothing to establish the existance of souls.
I like the 4 nobles, and the eight step program.
Don Juan deFuca
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WBraun
climber
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I have observed nothing to establish the existance of souls.
Then you are definately dead!
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Chatsworth
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 2, 2005 - 05:05pm PT
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What have you observed Werner, to establish the existance of souls?
Don Juan
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WBraun
climber
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So the great Juan builds a nice machine. One day the machine is not operating correctly. I speculate in many ways to make it work correctly. Still I cannot understand its operation. The creator Juan tells me it works in such and such a way.
So I have to just take Juan as an expert witness to his machine, and believe what he says?
Life or consciousness is the symptom of the soul. There is no other explanation of consciousness available. No one has been able to show life, consciousness can be generated from matter. And there are many inconsistencies which cannot be explained within the present framework, without considering the existence of the soul.
The "soul" is defined as a non-material, eternal spiritual entity present within any living being. The symptom of the presence of the soul within a body is consciousness. The soul continues to exist after the destruction of the body and it existed prior to the creation of the body. The material body develops, changes and produces by-products [offspring] because of the presence of the soul within. The material body deteriorates in due cause of time and when it is no longer a suitable residence for the soul it is forced to leave the body. This we call death.
Any material body inhabited by a soul will undergo these changes. It will be created, it will grow, it will produce by-products [offspring], it will dwindle and ultimately it will die.
There exists, within this material universe, three types of energy: gross material, subtle material and spiritual. The gross material energy consists of earth, water, fire, air and ether [defined as the "space" within the universe]. The subtle material energy consists of mind, intelligence and false-ego [defined as the identification of the body as the self]. The spiritual energy consists of the soul [the individual living entities] and the supersoul.
The presence of the soul in any living entity is indicated by consciousness. Although we cannot actually see the soul, we can see its symptoms. We cannot "see" electricity but when we see an illuminated light-globe we can see the symptom of the presence of electricity. Similarly when we see consciousness we see the symptom of the soul.
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climberweenie
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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Here's a pragmatic approach to spiritual belief: either spirit matters and there is something after this ride, or there isn't. If there is in fact nothing, there is nobody you can say "I told you so" to when it's done. But if you're wrong and something bigger than you cares whether or not you have faith (an idea that seems to me to be attributing human weakness and judgement to high powers, but a possibility nevertheless), then spiritually speaking your quite a ways above your last bomber placement on sketchy terrain.
Therefore, an appropriate risk-adjusted belief system appears to lean on the side of faith and spirituality. What have you got to lose other than your own sense of pride or justification for self-serving behavior?
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Chatsworth
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 2, 2005 - 05:31pm PT
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Thanks Werner,
I am not trying to be difficult. I seen to have experienced a drastic shift in my perception of the world in the last few months every since I have started reading Buddha books.
Its real strange. Its as if all my senses have been modified.
The world is way different. Its like I took the red pill.
Juan
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WBraun
climber
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This consciousness of the soul stands completely on its own. It says nothing about the existence or nonexistent of God. Although most religious people accept the concept of something other than matter that continues to exist after death and caries the person on to another life there are also atheists who accept such an entity exists.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Well, after reading this post I guess I have to somewhat eat crow on my "infobation" post...
This thread has nothing to do with climbing and has the topical trail of a sidewinder trying to cross traffic in Midtown at noon, but it's still pretty entertaining (though I'd still like there to be at least two sections "climbing" and "community"). And where Juan was one of the targets of the infobation post I now find I have to throw in with him.
Werner your quote:
"By the aid of the microscope and other instruments, many things can be perceived which had previously been denied by the imperfect senses."
In Terri's case the instrument would be an Electroencephalogram (EEG) and in every case she flatlined. In no sense of the word was she "concious" physically, mentally, emotionally, or even spiritually - she had no neural activity whatsoever associated with what any rational person would consider cognition or sentience (n. state of elementary or undifferentiated consciousness).
As Matt has tried to point out, our brains and nervous systems are divided into primary parts such as brain stem, Cerebrum, and Cerebellum. The brain stem and Cerebrum basically manage all your involuntary functions (breathing, heart, reaction, etc.) and the Cerebellum being the home of conciousness, cognition, sentience - we know this because we have scans of neural activity of people experiencing both physical and mental/emotional tasks/sensations/thoughts. This isn't conjecture, it's fact. Terri's EEG's were flat; no activity in the Cerebellum.
What you see in the videos of Terri is her brain stem and Cerebrum responding to external stimuli - it's the same mechnism the allows your body to respond to the leap of a Sabretooth or the squeal of brakes before you even know what's happening. No conciousness or cognition is required or involved.
With regards to your statement:
"Medical science, however, does admit that the heart is the seat of all energies of the body"
Nowhere does the "science" of Medicine (really more an art of applying various sciences) "admit" such a thing - the statement is false on the surface and I have to think this is either a gross misunderstanding of human anatomy/neurology or something along the lines of a [Eastern] fundamentalist urban myth.
Religion is such a uniquely human creation and, in my view, part and parcel of fact that almost all humans view the universe as if we are center of it all - our experience, our perceptions, our hopes, dreams, desires, and fears are what "existence" is all about. Religion in all forms is about as anthropomorphic an activity as it gets. How about prions, viruses, bacteria? Do they have souls? Do they get to go to heaven or have an afterlife? How about Worms and Crickets? Where along the continuum from some not-so-random assembly of Proteins to Homo Sapiens does a soul begin?
I personally believe religion in all forms and the near universal notion of a [motivating] "soul" is rooted in our both our curiousity (hunger for answers) and our fears (of our world and each other). Feeding and playing on those enjoined twins is the essence what keeps us a materialistic and divided world in my opinion. I also believe fundamentalism in all forms (christian, muslim, hindu, buddist, scientologist, et al) poses the greatest danger to our world both today and throughout history. Fear and curiousty and our relentless need/drive to quell and quench them delivers us up to our worst behaviours everytime.
Is the idea of living once, being lucky to be alive at all, to live this life as best one can, and move on so other organisms can take our place that frightening? That this is it, make the most of it, and then let it go having had your spin is somehow not enough for you/us. Are we so egocentric, frightened, needy, and greedy or do we miss each other so much that somehow the thought of us must survive. I think not and try to live accordingly - to make the most of this life, cherish it and all the others I am fortunate enough to take this ride called life with, and call it good and enough.
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WBraun
climber
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healyje
Who's afraid, I don't hear anyone being afraid of the soul.
I believe you and Matt are afraid.....
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Werner -
As sincere and offical as that testimony looks - Terri's EEG and CT scans from the early 90's are no different from the ones taken in 2002 - flatlined and severe Cerebral Cortex atrophy in all higher brain centers. The tone of the women's testimony is clearly hostile and one would easily guess she is another christian/fundamentalist with a severe bias in the case and using that as a justification for false statements.
Again, a person in Terri's physical/neurological state (as determined from her CT/EEG scans and verified by neurologists for both the State of Florida and her Parents) can not respond the way this person says she did - the woman is lying; why is another matter.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Chatsworth
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 2, 2005 - 07:10pm PT
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I spent the last nine hrs straight building seismic data loggers and I am about to go mental. So I am going to leave the lab now and go to Stoney Point. Ponder some of this while climbing. Go to AI in Pasadena and pickup a nice meal, then go home and start drinking. I think I need a few beers before I continue with this thread.
Prowsolo
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Chatsworth
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 2, 2005 - 07:15pm PT
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Better yet I will pickup a six pack on the way to Stoney.
Juan
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Matt and I aren't positing an afterlife for ourselves, you and others are - death happens as the conclusion to living. Why isn't that simply enough? What exactly are you and the others afraid of? That you'll be gone? That that's it? And (just curious) what makes anything you read in an Eastern text any more valid than the Koran, the Bible, or one of Ron L. Hubbard's tone? Just that you like it or it finds some affinity for you? If I have fear, it's more about the potential harshness of life than about death. What exactly do you think we're afraid of...?
And do your texts have an answer to this:
"How about prions, viruses, bacteria? Do they have souls? Do they get to go to heaven or have an afterlife? How about Worms and Crickets? Where along the continuum from some not-so-random assembly of Proteins to Homo Sapiens does a soul begin?"
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WBraun
climber
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healyje
Still she had consciousness which means the presence of the life force the soul. She was alive and conscious not dead. Her brain not functioning makes no difference. The presence of consciousness does not depend on the brain.
Where along the continuum from some not-so-random assembly of Proteins to Homo Sapiens does a soul begin?"
I already explained that.
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