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WBraun
climber
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There are no limits to the living entity except ignorance of its own conscious self.
Want to run faster just become a Cheetah in your next life.
Then you can run faster, and waste your time going nowhere again around the wheel ......
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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In a popular bouldering area it might make more sense to "grade" each problem by simply counting the number of climbers who are successful on it.
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Maybe someday "robo-climber" will be built. A human figure with hands and feet, but with greater lock off and pull up strength than a human. Then he can be programmed with algorithms to measure grades.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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We can each of us get some idea of how hard a climb is by trying to do it.
Trying to compare difficulty across climbers, I like John Gill's suggestion. Given enough climbers you just count the number of successes. For the truly hard climbs it will likely be reported when someone succeeds.
For lesser stuff the grapevine can work as long as there are enough climbers in the arena. After you get enough info then you can debate why some succeed and others don't. Or you can go ahead and just debate.
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Pete_N
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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<In a popular bouldering area it might make more sense to "grade" each problem by simply counting the number of climbers who are successful on it.>
I like John's suggestion; it seems the best way yet to quantify the difficulty semi-objectively (emphasis on 'semi-').
In a similar vein, one might be able to compare the number of routes at each grade in successive guidebooks for an established area to model the progression of 'hard' climbing. I don't have the library of old guidebooks necessary, but I bet some of you do! What's the frequency distribution of 5.7-5.hardest in every Yosemite guide? Presumably, the median grade is going to shift right over the years, but rate at which it does so may have some predictive value.
It may be more interesting to compare grade frequency distributions among multiple climbing venues; this is probably more of a function of geomorphology though than local climbing ability.
I know there are a host of problems with the approach, but it's fun to consider.
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Bruce Morris
Trad climber
Soulsbyville, California
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Hasn't John Gill's original B1, B2, B3 bouldering grading system got to do with number of repeats, at least as far as B3 is concerned? B3 would be on ascent with no repeats? I seem to remember when B1s were rated as approximately V4, which would be 5.12a YDS (if you want to compare bouldering with free-climbing). Bet John could be a lot more precise.
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Pete_N
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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have at it!
Yikes. Be careful what you ask for... I'll see what I can do. Thanks Ed. I think.
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Digits
Trad climber
Ca
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There’s a short 11a top rope route that never fails to make my day. The moves matter most and I could care less what the grade is....
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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As Ondra said - it's easy to find a hard climb, harder to find one you can climb.
Yosemite could be simplified by saying it's either an easy crack or a polished face. The crux of all the modern big wall free climbs is basically linking crack systems across featureless faces.
There's a video of Rodden working Meltdown. It looked totally miserable. Compare that to the many videos of - say - Realization - or any of its neighbors.
So you're among the best, where are you going to spend your time? For hard sport - probably not Yosemite. Nobody wants to crimp dimes all day long.
Also - trad is ground up, on sight, or at least close to it. Meltdown isn't a trad route - it's a sport route protected by trad gear.
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Eric Beck
Sport climber
Bishop, California
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Just a thought on the more limited topic of the feasibility of climbing grades. There are those who despair of this given all the variation in types of climbing...slabs , face, crack and sizes of climbers and their extremities. Some just find it hopelessly subjective.
I have always taken the opposite view, that given all the variables, it is remarkable the degree of consensus in our grading system. For data on this, visit Mountain Project. For any route there is a section 'opinions' where people are invited to give their own rating. It is remarkable how little variation there is.
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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Speaking of the chart of running records,
the world record for the mile and 1500m has not improved in 20 years.
Morocco’s Hicham El Guerrouj has held the world record for the mile of 3:43.13 since July 7, 1999
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvCsj7eJKKA
Hicham El Guerrouj 1500m Rome 14 July 1998 03:26.00
Sports with absolute measurements don't have the problems of relative and subjective ratings.
Even if there were a theoretical absolute upper limit to climbing, as that value is approached, the scale can still be divided into an infinite number of difficulty ratings.
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Trashman
Trad climber
SLC
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If only Worrall were around to see his demographic catching up to the free climbing level of young ladies, he’d be so proud.
First Tommy on The Nose, now this!
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hailman
Trad climber
Ventura, CA
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Unlike, say, a running race where it is physically impossible to run a distance in zero seconds,
the climbing scale is relative rather than absolute. Then the grades could keep going higher and higher, but the difficulty difference between higher grades would get smaller and smaller.
this is just like a logarithmic scale:
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Kalimon
Social climber
Ridgway, CO
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The spirit is not bound by gravity.
Let us not forget.
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PinkTaco
Mountain climber
Utah
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This thread is a little like listening to the Senators in DC talk about the internet... I'm just sayin'.
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Loyd
Big Wall climber
Roseburg, OR
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I seem to remember when we were having the same discussion about how hard the climbs and the rating could go back in camp four in 1970. We were trying to define 5.10 and looking for 5.11. New gear and indoor gyms helped advance climbing then.
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Trump
climber
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Is this a climbing thread or a what is mind/religion vs science thread?
Sure you gross materialists can use your little machines to try to quantify 5.16, but in the end yer just gonna have to bow down to how objectively awesome humans in general, and climbers in particular, are, for the superlative ways we rate the unique awesomeness our own experiences.
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Oplopanax
Mountain climber
The Deep Woods
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I watched that Ondra film in Reel Rock 13 last night.
Apparently the limit of free climbing is how well you can lie on your back and grunt and squirm while visualizing.
Video was kinda like watching a dude masturbate. Embarrassing.
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