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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Feb 10, 2008 - 10:42pm PT
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LEB...love too.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Feb 10, 2008 - 11:49pm PT
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OK, let's call a rock, a rock. Single payer, government-run, whatever. Even socialist!? It's pretty much the same.
But what we've got now is bad and getting worse. These govt. run systems in other countries by and large have better outcomes for less pct of GDP.
Are you saying that those of us in the US, who pride ourselves at being the best, can't learn from some of the problems and do better? Have better dental care than the Brits, but just as good health care?
And let's not pretend that single payer solves all the problems. Fee for service medicine creates a lot of problems. Too many specialists creates problems.
For some good reading, try this book:
http://www.amazon.com/Second-Opinion-Rescuing-Americas-Health/dp/1586484818/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1202705139&sr=1-1
It's by a Dr. who is a former Harvard prof, and former editor of the New England Journal of Medicine. It has a pretty detailed explanation of the problems, and while implementing all his solutions will be very hard, it might be worth trying.
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Standing Strong
Trad climber
heart's all over the world tonight
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Feb 11, 2008 - 12:16am PT
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LEB if you are a troll, you are an insensitive one. mocking someone who has lost a parent isn't funny. that's really hard. i comment sometimes on having lost my dad to complications of diabetes a few years ago. not because i want people to feel sorry for me, but because i want people to know where i'm coming from. most people in their twenties won't lose a parent until their forties or fifties or even sixties and so i don't always relate really well to people my own age. i had totally different stuff going on. i will always, always wonder where i would be in life right now if i had not had such a major interruption. my dad was one of my best friends.
and it's true that grief can be circular and can hit you when you least expect it.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Feb 11, 2008 - 12:27am PT
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" I talked to my doctor about this and he explained... that since Denver Health is a county hospital. 80% of their patents are uninsured, and since rarely anyone pay's their full bill, idiots like myself end up paying the most."
That's how it works. They have two rates, one for insurance companies and one for uninsured people. The insurance company rate is comparatively much lower, because they know they'll get paid. The uninsured one is much higher, because they don't expect most people to be able to pay, so they try to make up the difference with those who can pay.
Pretend you are selling coffee and want to make a dollar a cup. If you can collect cash first before serving, you can just charge a dollar per cup. But assume that only 1 person in 10 will pay you. You will have to charge $10 per cup and collect it from those who can pay.
Of course the higher you make the price, the fewer people are able to pay it. And the fewer people who pay it, the higher you will have to make it. It is a viscous cycle.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Feb 11, 2008 - 01:06am PT
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LEB wrote about Social Security
"I think the problem was that Bush did not well promote his plan to "privatize" SS. He is inarticulate and he has no patience to explain things to folks in the first place. He wants people to blindly follow him but he does not have enough charisma to command that. Someone else maybe could have gotten away with it."
The problem was that it's a crappy idea. How'd you like if if the government rolled your retirement into the stock market when he proposed to? What percentage has the Dow, Nasdaq or other indexes gone DOWN since then?
Folks who say the government can't do anything and privatization is the answer should look at Iraq. An army cook probably makes $30,000 a year but the contractor cooks make up to $100,000+. But wait, we're told private industry does things more cheaply. That's just talk. Medicare administration rates are very low.
Peace
karl
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Standing Strong
Trad climber
heart's all over the world tonight
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Feb 11, 2008 - 01:10am PT
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i didn't say you were mocking ME. just mocking that in general. and that i was offended because i have experienced that. and a lot of people think you're a troll.
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Robb
Social climber
Pick Up Truck Heaven
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Feb 11, 2008 - 01:49am PT
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Karl, Karl, Karl
"Folks who say the government can't do anything and privatization is the answer should look at Iraq. An army cook probably makes $30,000 a year but the contractor cooks make up to $100,000+. But wait, we're told private industry does things more cheaply"
Should've signed up w/ the winning team Karl!
Signed up w/ the wrong job w/ Curry?
Hung in to long hoping they'ed pay off for you?
You didn't have any problem hanging on w/ Curry as long as it served your desires, did you. And now you can bag on the obvious corporarate abuse of it's personel for profit?
But now wait, stop, .... now it's bang, bang, bang, now that the evil corporate structure now longer serves to allow your lifestyle?
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Robb
Social climber
Pick Up Truck Heaven
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Feb 11, 2008 - 01:53am PT
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Karl'
I'm just askin because way BITD you made such a point of laying it on for your point of view.
Different a couple a decades later, huh?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Feb 11, 2008 - 10:47am PT
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Hey Bro
I worked in a corporation for years and years and that's how I know the corrupt way they work from the inside. There were TONS of great people, even in some higher positions in Curry, (many are still friends) but the groupthink and built-in profit motivations made horrible things possible that were only prevented by the employee union, public outcry and NPS regulation. I promise you, left to it's own devices, Curry would not be giving it's employees health care AT ALL, and there would be a tram to the top of Glacier POint.
Doesn't mean only evil people should work in corporations. I tried to strike a balance between the corporate interest and the welfare of all and I'm proud of it.
Highly recommend folks see the documentary "the corporation"
http://tinyurl.com/25j6rw
Lois, SS would be just fine if the government left the funds alone. Even the most conservative funds are down, and just wait until the whole housing thing hits in ernest. Pork for wall street. The regular American has no expertise on how to invest their retirement money and, well, I just don't have time to go on with this.
We gotta figure out a way to get us self-employed folks on a group plan so they can't price us out of coverage as soon as we're sick! That's my new REAL concern.
Peace
karl
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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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Feb 11, 2008 - 11:04am PT
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so i went skiing yesterday for the first time since my heart attack. i was fine all day, and even though the plan was to take it easy, well, i have issues and can't seem to stop myself from jumping off the steepest things i can find sometimes...we ended up hammering it most of the day, with the occasional break for a cruiser here and there...
a half hour after we get back to my van the chest pains started in. i was told they would happen while stressing the system if at all, not afterwards.
it's a sunday night - options are to go to the ER or nada...i didn't go, because i'm worried my coverage will either get jacked up past where i can pay for it, or worse - dropped with a nice expensive pre-existing condition...took a couple nitroglycerin pills and went to bed, after lying on the couch for four hours waiting for the one strong stab that would tell me i *had* to go in...
it was nice to wake up today, though...
*there* is your health care reality. and i make decent money, and have insurance at this moment...
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Shingle
climber
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Feb 11, 2008 - 11:20am PT
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"*there* is your health care reality"
I agree - the reality is people acting irresponsibly and wanting us to pay for it.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Feb 11, 2008 - 11:22am PT
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Another "Reality" Story:
No insurance - last year I got what must have been a pinched nerve in my neck. The pain was excruciating if I used any mobility whatsoever in my neck or upper back. I was so frightened of having to go for medical help, knowing the charges would likely be 5 figures....
I spent 3 days telling myself "if it still hurts tomorrow"... and each day it actually hurt MORE. I was looking up thins online - wet/dry heating pad and such....made it worse.
Stooping down to care for my dog or client dogs would send a shockwave through my body that would nearly knock me out. In bed, I had to use my hands and arms to cradle the back of my head to lift myself from a prone position. So much as one wrong move - and there was always one wrong move and the same pain would wrench me.
Terrified of getting myself in a financial debt(by going for medical help) that would mess me up for years to come, I finally, I found some site that said a doctor would probably provide aspirin and a neck brace. I went to the local supply place and bought a simple one for something like $7, or $17. I just remember being surprised it cost so little.
I went home, put on the brace and did my very, very best to immobilize my neck.
Three days later there was no evidence whatsoever of a problem having ever existed, and it has not recurred.
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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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Feb 11, 2008 - 11:29am PT
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"I agree - the reality is people acting irresponsibly and wanting us to pay for it. "
Actually, my point was someone that has purchased their own health care being afraid to use it sometimes lest it be taken away. I will try to be more clear next time. I followed Dr's orders, my symptoms were outside the box we discussed at length when he told me to start getting back out there, and I made a completely uneducated medical decision based on purely financial concerns...not sure where I'm asking *You* to pay for any of it...perhaps you can point that out.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Feb 11, 2008 - 11:37am PT
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Shingle wrote
""*there* is your health care reality"
I agree - the reality is people acting irresponsibly and wanting us to pay for it."
I have to assume he meant you pushed the envelope skiing when you were supposed to lay low, since, after all, you have insurance and nobody has to pay for you.
But then, it's a funny thing to post on a rockclimbing forum. Some folks might say that any injury that a rockclimber gets is due to irresponsible behavior
Peace
Karl
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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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Feb 11, 2008 - 11:48am PT
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indeed karl. I was going to ask the poster if they climbed outside ever...
Here's another story ;
4 years ago I got a virulent case of athlete's foot from my ski boots - it was that sick 700 inch season and my sh#t just never dried out - when I finally went to the podiatrist he said 'Wow. I've never seen a case that aggressive before.' He gave me a script for some pills and samples of a steroid cream that would have been a hundred a tube even with my health plan. The pills would have been hundreds a bottle as well, but were only 40 or something like that with my coverage.
3 months later, and I'm still having a little of the symptoms. I get online and find vinegar is a huge natural anti fungal. I soak my feet for ten minutes each night in 50/50 white vinegar and water. Vinegar is 1.49 a gallon, btw.
Problem SOLVED - one week.
No pills, no steroids, no weird side affects like can't go outside in the sun - PENNIES a treatment.
so - 300 bucks + in stuff that didn't work, or 1.50 in vinegar. One was Dr's orders, one was old school knowledge that I had to go look for.
Spot anything wrong there ?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Feb 11, 2008 - 11:56am PT
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Just another story, I'm headed to India today and I'll get my teeth worked on and any medical stuff done. It will cost a fraction of what US care costs. Yes I have Blue Cross and Dental Insurance too but they are so weak, I just don't feel like I can use service here and worry that using them will jack up my rates.
Peace
Karl
PS I think it's total madness that billions are spent advertising prescription medicine so folks will pressure their doctor to write them a script for something they aren't allowed to use their own judgement to buy. Leave it to the docs or let the people have it, but don't waste our money through advertising
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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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Feb 11, 2008 - 12:09pm PT
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Safe Travels Karl ! You know the drill - pics and a TR ;-)
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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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Feb 11, 2008 - 01:01pm PT
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LEB -
I'm on them all and take them daily :
metoprolol, simivastin, plavix, lisinopril, and an eco-coated aspirin. And yeah - I'm 40 - a little young to be on the heart attack curve, but I've always been an over-achiever...
I've been doing supervised cardio rehab for two weeks without incident - just the non-stop ache in my heart where the stent is slowly working into the artery wall (at 250 psi they tell me...whoa...). I've been able to hammer it on a treadmill and keep a sustained rate up, but I'm pretty sure this comes nowhere close to the shockload of a 55 degree slope and 30 seconds of freefall - the cardio guy thinks I prolly peg 145-160 BPM in those situations, and there's no guesstimate on the blood pressure but I bet its up there too...
Both the doctor and cardio rehab guy said get out, be careful, roll it back if it starts hurting...the catch is it didn't start hurting til half an hour *after* we stopped skiing...seriously. Trust me - If I started having the squeeze while out there hitting it I would have rolled it back, but how much farther down than sitting in a van can I roll it ?
dehydration and thicker blood maybe ?
finally eating, stuffing my gullet and messing with my abdominal pressure ?
more plaque ripping loose ?
angina from clots or something ?
dunno, and I'm not really thrilled with it...we will see what they want to do in a couple hours when i go back in for the monitored workout...
but we are drifting...
My point was that I have health insurance and am now afraid to use it fully due to all the corporate BS involved in the way it is run - I fear being dropped or priced out of it.
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John Moosie
climber
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Feb 11, 2008 - 01:20pm PT
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Lois,
I have a different take on what you wrote.
People who live in cold country get use to the cold. My bet is that Tom isn't cold while he is out there hitting it. His blood vessels aren't restricting but are wide open. The only time an active person feels cold is when they first go outside. Once you are moving you don't get cold. At least I didn't, especially if you dress properly and are accustomed to being outdoors. Those are the two keys.
I use to overheat and have to take off layers. Even on very cold days.
I think Tom is closer to the truth. Its just the body adjusting to the stent. But I am not a doctor.
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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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Feb 11, 2008 - 01:24pm PT
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is smoking pot a vascular dilator ? I've been told it is...
this too could explain the symptoms (in theory, of course...) regular application while under stress and in the cold, then symptoms arrive upon ceasing said application...(funny, he felt fine for the 4 hours he was smoking dope and skiing his nuts off...)
besides LEB - we are all going to die. I still need to live - i think the Dr was more worried about my mental mojo if i don't get out there...
khanom - check yer gmail bro...bugaboos in summer ? and be nice...we know you don't like LEB ;-)
moosie edit - and yer damn right dude - I sweat hard when I ski, or I am just riding the planks...
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