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Matt M
Trad climber
Tacoma, WA (Temp in San Antonio for Yr)
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Sep 12, 2007 - 03:27pm PT
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Hedge does raise a good point I didn't touch upon earlier. Traffic patterns on routes.
I think looking at climbs (bolts or non bolts alike) there is a definite tendency for harder climbs to go museum faster than most. A lot of seminal climbs don't see the traffic simply because the bell curve of talent precludes it. 5.12 won't see nearly as much traffic as 5.10 or 5.8 and at some point, unless there's a healthy supply of high level climbers coming through, the routes age to the point where the condition as well as the grade speed it's descent into oblivion. INDEX, WA was local place where I saw this. Mainly stuff at 5.10 and above, gear and bolts - there are TONS of quality routes there but most moss over and rust. Why? The proud crew that was active moved on and until recently, there wasn't another to take up the torch. It's seen a lot of new interest lately and with it, scrubbing, pruning and hardware upgrades, which has increased the interest even more. A good side study could be made in the dynamics of climbing areas and "museum status". It would also be interesting to study how many times climbs get done looking at variables such as difficulty, risk, style etc. You certainly may see things that stay in the "museum archive" a lot longer than others.
So - open debate here: I've often pondered whether the climbing community would EVER allow something as controversial as "scaled retro-bolting". Here's what I mean... Slab climbing is a style near and dear to me. I love the focus and technique you need to get up something that at first seems "blank". Very puzzle-esque. I, at times, also thoroughly enjoy the mental challenge of run-out climbing. Putting my mettle to the test against the FAist and succeeding is a fantastic feeling. HOWEVER. I think there is a short coming in the slab style that keeps many from enjoying it. There is no real "learning curve" available to most as there is with the other styles. On cracks, you can work your way up in both difficulty and danger in a very incremental way. You don't jump from 5.6 to 5.10 R in rapid steps. Slab however, rarely presents this as an option. Because it was an older style, a significant number of the FAs in the moderate realm were put up by a select few set of climbers adhering to the proud style of the day. So now you have a larger and broader set of climbers looking to progress and you find it goes from 5.6 to 5.10 40 feet out VERY quickly. There are few places you can learn hard slab without also looking at bad falls. I'd be interested to see what FAist and the community would say if someone said - hey? how bout a long, hard slab route that's well protected (within reason - 3 ft spacing is not what I'm saying). Then one where the run-outs are moderate, then back to bold? We have crack circuits and wide crack circuits and even sport climb circuits - why not older styles as well? Now I realize a lot of what I just typed flies in the face of the typical ethic. I'm not saying you go out and retro bolt 50 climbs. But think of how many areas might see more traffic - across the board - if select climbs were retro'd to varying degrees. I know I've read on here about guys working up to do the BY - easier climbs to hard - I just don't think that option exists a much in the lower grades. Crazy talk I know but this has been a good thread so far.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Sep 12, 2007 - 03:27pm PT
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back in the old days there were severeal routes that i knew i had to have certain abilities to do. i worked at it and didnt get on these routes until I KNEW that it was unlikely i would fall off them. i felt that i had earned the right to even attempt them as falls would have been unhealthy.
i realize that there are some folks out there who need things handed to them on a silver platter (ie: bolts galore). sometimes, life aint easy and you just got to quite your cryin and sack up. or admit defeat gracefully. gawd damn i hate admitting to those weaknesses i can see how it might get under some folks skin....especially if you can climb 5.13 on plastic but cant sack up for a 5.11. pity those guys i do, yep.
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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Sep 12, 2007 - 03:29pm PT
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Funny thing is, the longer I hang out on this rock, the more I recognize that everything comes full circle. The styles (clothes, hair, cars, etc) of today were often the hot deal years ago, even if someone claims to have come up with it on their own. Maybe climbs that require nerve and skill will come back into style... (completely tongue in cheek if anyone misses the intent of humor).
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Anastasia
Trad climber
California
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Sep 12, 2007 - 03:36pm PT
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A. Crowley,
No stuffing my rope gun!
In fact I don't think there is an expiration date on him. Right now he's getting back in shape so I have reasons to be curious about the future of John Bachar "the climber."
AF
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Sep 12, 2007 - 03:38pm PT
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DMT: "Committees and all that bullsh#t? Rulebooks??? The Park service issuing rebolting permits? Historic Route Register criteria???
F*#K.... ALL... THAT...."
But that is where we are headed. One of the chief justifications for allowing climbing--and certain types of fixed protection--on public lands is that climbing is a "historic use" that has helped to create a "historic landscape" which is one of the values that managers can plan for and regulate. And it is one of the justifications for "trad" climbing generally in a land use plan that might otherwise mandate regular fixed protection in order to limit legal liability. That means that someone is going to define "historic" and define what would constitute "historic character." Better the AC or one of the climber's coalitions than the NPS. Put it another way, at least in the context of the National Park System: If it isn't a "historic landscape," then it's a "natural landscape," and few land managers are going to describe bolts--button-head, star drive-ins, stainless steel or otherwise--as "natural."
I can't say I like the idea either, but it is one of the things that preserved access in the Gunks and kept Elbsandstein from being grid-bolted. John can say a lot more about how it worked in the Gunks. COSIROC at Fontainebleau is another successful example.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Sep 12, 2007 - 04:01pm PT
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Matt, if the climbers of yore learned to slab climb and did not get seriously hurt doing it (in most instances) then why can't current climbers do the same. The reason that I suspect is that most newer climbers, climbing in the gym or at a sport crag, don't want to take a dent to their ego to spend the time getting comfortable on a 5.7/5.8 slab when the feel much more macho doing an 5.11a at Williamson that requires no more than a set of guns to fire off.
Runout slab climbing can be learned safely, but first you have to learn how to read a route and, probably more important, have to down climb really well. I know so many climbers at the gym who beat their chest about a sport or crack climb but will refuse to hop on a 5.9 slab because they don't know how to climb it (since they can't muscle their way up it); plus you don't score any points in your little circle for saying you bagged Stick to What or The Fiend.
Offwidths are really hard too if you don't know how to climb wide cracks. Should we retro bolt those too? If you don't want to invest the time to climb slab then don't climb it. Most opt not to. That's why the traffic on the museum climbs is so low.
P.S. DMT, I've always been really curious about Boku Maru, etc, particularly since I've got a buddy who can dance his way up 5.10R off the couch, which is where we find ourselves most of time these days. Any beta other than find the dike and follow it?
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TradIsGood
Happy and Healthy climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Sep 12, 2007 - 04:07pm PT
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The many dimensions of museum climbs
 1) Boldness - likelihood of death / serious injury on failure
2) Quality of protection - hooks to bolts
3) Frequency of placements - none to frequent (This and #2) contribute to 1
4) Quality of equipment, shoes, tape, chalk, ad nauseum
5) Vanity of first ascender - That's right folks!
6) Vanity of prospective repeater (I'm as bad-ass as he...)
So here is the True Climbing Museum Solution ™
M.0 Museums are required by law to be wheelchair accessible. So a cable is necessary for W/C access.
M.1 Climber uses carefully placed bolts meeting ASTM specs every 3 feet.
M.2 Climber skips alternate bolts. They are numbered. He may choose even or odd.
M.3 Climber clips only bolts with G, R, X, F* ratings
M.4 Climber clips only bolts with R, X, F* ratings
M.5 Climber clips only bolts with X, F* ratings.
M.6 Climber clips only F* bolts
M.7 Climber places own gear at F* locations, if necessary.
M.8 Climber free solos the route
M.9 Free solos the route and sprays in publication or web-site
*F denotes locations of gear put up by first ascenders.
Pluses and minuses or letter grades can be added for any non-pure ascents in the above grading system.
Finally, suffix N (for nostalgia) can be claimed for grades above M.6 when the climber replicates the equipment of the FFA, e.g. work-boots for Kamp climbs, hand-forged pitons from stove-legs, etc.
RFIDs will be issued to those that want certification of their climbing.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Sep 12, 2007 - 04:45pm PT
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nice jhedge. glad you are getting it.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Sep 12, 2007 - 04:50pm PT
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joe would have you believe that bachar knew exactly how hard that was going to be and cakewalked up there. where in retrospect, a climb like that takes something that a sport climb doe not require, a belief in ones abilities and the ability to get over the basic fear of f%%%in up....bigtime.
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seamus mcshane
climber
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Sep 12, 2007 - 04:53pm PT
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Joe, just stay away from existing routes in trad areas, there are plenty of places for you to climb.
Oh yeah, not every inch of rock has to be climbed.
Climbers now are doing some bold climbing anyway, so why the beef with history?
Do all routes have to be led?
As you state, stick to the toprope (re-bolt the rustys), or headpoint the routes you're afraid of.
Just don't add any bolts to existing routes, for whatever reason.
Seems simple to me.
Your logic is simlar to Jardine's "Numero Uno", climb for the masses.
Pretty weak logic IMHO.
Oh yeah you sound like you're whining (i.e. weschrist).
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Sep 12, 2007 - 05:32pm PT
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Would this be a good place to mention the excellent work being done by Roger Brown and Clint Cummins, and others, in the Valley? On exactly the sort of thing that jthedge is concerned about? They're simply replacing existing drilled anchors, very carefully, but are putting enormous work into it. And many of the climbs, although slabs without a lot of bolts, are within the ability of a competent 5.9 or 5.10 leader.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=441303
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Sep 12, 2007 - 05:38pm PT
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Seems like some who think it through realize there is a nuanced question underlying all of this. Others revert to the usual "go climb in a gym" or "every cliff does not need to be gridbolted" BS. Most of the climbers on this forum are not just gym climbers and I don't think suggesting the addition of a bolt to prevent a fatal fall opens the floodgates to gridbolting. Also, there's a huge difference between a runout climb and a dangerous climb- the two are not necessarily coextensive.
In any case, some routes will fall into oblivion and will be redone, some times in good style and sometimes not. This has already happened at places like the stronghold (it's probably more likely to happen out in the provences than a place like YNP). It probably means the route was not that great to begin with or was not done in a style anyone cared enough to remember.
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TKingsbury
Trad climber
MT
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Sep 12, 2007 - 06:00pm PT
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I wouldn't call the people freeing el cap routes 'sport' climbers...more like 'well rounded' climbers...
There is enough rock for routes of all kinds, just respect the original ascent.
EDIT: by the way, WTF does being a sport climber or freeing el cap routes have to do with respecting the FA ethic?
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Sep 12, 2007 - 06:05pm PT
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Joe you ignorant slut!
Bachar was right. Sportclimbing is a relatively soulless pasttime and, given the grid bolting, chipping, "cleaning" and other activities at some sport areas, destructive as well. The fact that some sportclimbers have gotten so good as to apply their talents to things such as El Cap does not justify denigrating every area to a sportclimbing ethic.
Some ideas are worth pursuing. The notion of climbing as a sport where the climber relies primarily on his skill and not a line of bolts to progress is the ideal to which we should aspire, even if we probably fall short of that and still manage to have a good time. After all this discussion I still believe one general premise should hold true: if you can't climb it in the same style as your predecessors, either get better or walk away and leave some rock for better climbers to aspire to.
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seamus mcshane
climber
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Sep 12, 2007 - 06:19pm PT
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Joe, just toprope the "museum climbs" and go put up your own in whatever style you choose.
Don't bother trying to patronize JB, your sincerity is lacking.
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TKingsbury
Trad climber
MT
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Sep 12, 2007 - 06:38pm PT
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Joe, you're skirting my question.
And I wouldn't call Huber a sport climber.
from his website:
"Has enjoyed mountaineering from the very beginning ; stood on top of his first 4000er at the age of 11"
Doesn't sound like sport climbing to me...not the point though, this is about respecting the FA. Not every route is meant for every person.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Sep 12, 2007 - 06:43pm PT
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joe,
perhaps you can elaborate on why retrobolting routes like the BY would further the sport of rockclimbing at the leading elite levels?
seems kind of quite the contrary....like you are pissing and moaning about how great sport climmbing is and how it has made climbers better (i agree in some respects) and i dont see the tie to retroing dangerous routes....
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Sep 12, 2007 - 07:51pm PT
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"not every route should stay runout just out of blind adherence to tradition."
i actually agree with you here. however, just because something is not done frequently does not infer that the majority of climbers feel that it was put up in bad style. i got to hand it to you though, you hang on liike a pitbull. if you hang onto knobs like you do this issue, it ought to be easy for you to go 4th class that thing!
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snyd
Sport climber
Lexington, KY
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Sep 12, 2007 - 08:05pm PT
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Joe, oh homo one! When are you coming to Kentucky to practice climb with us?
We were never good enough to do the scary routes in the park but we can climb overhanging sandstone till our forearms explode with the pump. Come hither Joe...the safety of overhanging sandstone sport routes calls.
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