Regional climbing rivalries: examples?

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henny

Social climber

The Past

Jun 28, 2007 - 01:29pm PT

scuffy b: Yeap. You were more or less objective.

Rubidoux: I had the radio stolen out of my car there. Not a nice place at all in that respect. And not a nice place in other respects either, huge amounts of graffiti, etc... It used to be nice but it has steadily deteriated over the years. A pretty nasty urban scene. Still, it does have its share of problems that are quite good, some even really good.

Woodson: (can't believe I'm going to say this - bvb, close yer eyes) What can you say bad about it? I lived in the Riverside area for many years and played the hand I was dealt. I wish Woodson would have been as accessible to me as Rubidoux but it wasn't.

Over the years a friendly "rivalry" developed between some San Diego climbers and those of us in the Riverside area. Even though some (most) of its relevance is now gone we continue to exchange banter, all in good fun. BVB, KP, and myself were simply using the rivalry aspect to say "hi" to each other (plus, it's fun to try and yank bvb's chain...)

scuffy b

climber

Bates Creek

Jun 28, 2007 - 02:23pm PT

henny,
I agree it's too bad there's such a distance between Rubidoux and
Woodson.
Circumstances. I've only been to Rubidoux once, in 1973. Surely
not much to base any opinion on.
Plus, I'm still harvesting some feel-good feelings from the
Shindig a couple months back. As I recall, hardly anybody
slandered the living heck out of you that day. I think maybe
bvb would have, but he was intimidated by KP.

Patrick Sawyer

climber

Originally California now Ireland

Jun 28, 2007 - 02:46pm PT

Off topic

John, rural Ireland has still retained much of its uniqueness, but places like Dublin have seen major changes in the past ten years. This place has changed since I came here in 1995, but it really has changed big time since when I first came here in 1982.

Today,the first black person has been elected as mayor of an Irish town.

Rotimi Adebari (43), an independent member of Portlaoise Town Council, has been elected mayor of the town at a council meeting this afternoon. He came here seven years ago with his wife and two children as an asylum seeker fleeing religious persecution in Nigeria.

In 1995 Dublin could perhaps, perhaps that is, still be considered provincial, but now it is very cosmopolitan.

Ghost

climber

A long way from where I started

Jun 28, 2007 - 03:16pm PT

While regional rivalries certainly exist here and there and now and then, I'll bet most of us can name ten local rivalries for every regional one. Climbers from whatever area are far more likely to be pissing on each other, and on each other's routes, than they are on visitors.

David

bob d'antonio

Trad climber

Taos, NM

Jun 28, 2007 - 04:10pm PT

synd wrote: It is telling that one of the most memorable Ament quotes is: "Climbers disdain me and take shots at me but not as cheap as mine at them."

What's telling about it?? He was young and brashful...Should have heard some of things I said in my teens and early 20's.

Mugley

Sport climber

Riverside, CA

Jun 28, 2007 - 05:09pm PT

Oli, with all due respect... Either you Colorado guys were keeping your best secret weapons cloistered away in some lycra and wheatgrass festooned training facility, or the best talent you sent over to Cali was just never that good from the get go. The names listed, while very good climbers, never really had the goods when it came right down to hard pulling. I once saw "Ghengis" Karn *almost* pull pretty darn hard out in Hueco one year, but then ended up quite flaccid right at the moment of actual hard-ness. I think Holloway pulled hard, but he was possibly from Santa Cruz or Palm Springs..... shabby effort trying to claim him as one of Colorados finest.....

When we sent our boys out (Bachar, Long, McClenahan), they devoured local testpieces all over the country whilst living in a Toyota Corolla and eating nothing more than rice cakes and local egos. Them boys could pull on any terrain, at a top notch standard, and had zero need for a potato in their pants or any other shenanigans.

Ha-Ha-Ha-Ha-Ha! Welcome to the WWF!

Funny thing, half of the ten most talented rock climbers I've seen in my life were neither from Cali or Colo. Not everybody postures on the 50 yard line. Hollywood is definitely #1 at self promotion (but Colorado is fairly close).

Brunosafari

Boulder climber

Redmond, OR

Jun 28, 2007 - 07:49pm PT

Ricky--this is a really interesting and vast topic, (if somewhat loaded), which you introduced so well. I hope wise minds and big hearts can prevail in the discourse.

The humble Poway Mountaineers, aka "Poway Mountain Boys," like the original Stonemasters, also were enthusiastic students of climbing literature, especially the history of the Alps. But I can remember being repulsed, hearing, while I read, excessively nationalistic tones of pre and post war Europe. I imagined Adolf Hitler and Charles De Gaulle fighting it out on the Eiger's Exit Cracks with bloody ice daggers and grenades. It caused me to always ask the question,

"At what point does competitiveness become destructive?"

SNYD- Love your spicy, youthful enthusiasm and the photos and may you crank on in gorgeous Kentucky. Yet think about it a second longer...there was at least one teen-aged talent in the sixties bruising plenty of egos. His name was Pat Ament.

Oli- I can recall a conversation with Jim Bridwell in 1973. He was telling me about the great Colorado climbing, the intricate rock and the talented climbers. There were no qualifiers, no discounts, no slander and no criticisms; just LEADERSHIP.

I once read a great magazine which inspired a sense of imagination, a sense of heritage and discipline and unity. It was called "The Climbing Art." More leadership...

Okay, I'm getting overly proud of my cleverness here, all just to say that I've always loved climbers, all climbers, from all places, even the funny, embarrassing turkeys at the crag which we will someday all become, if we haven't already. The young and sometimes arrogant? They are the kids and we are the adults so let us buck up and run it out a bit if need be. They need us...they just don't know it yet! Lexington, here I come. AAC grant??

G. Bruce Adams

Mugley--I do indeed like your name. But do you mean to say that five of the ten most talented climbers you've seen in your life were from Cali or Colorado?! Where did you say were all the places you've climbed? I'd say that half is quite a high percentage, since California and Colorado definitely do not comprise 50% of the population, especially if you figure in Europe along with Kentucky! It would be interesting for us to discuss your criteria for "talented," but I think that is leading the thread out yonder. Perhaps you have gone astray and are in need of guidance in addition to practicing your computation awareness.

Bldrjac

Ice climber

Boulder

Jun 28, 2007 - 09:39pm PT

I seem to remember quite a few rivalties back then. There was Jim donini (from the GUNKS) daring to enter the Valley and climb Overhang overpass, Something Jim Bridwell had tried but not finished. Donini bebat him to it. We all know about Hot Henry coming to the Valley and doing Fish Crack and Butterballs before any local could do them. Genrally though he did that everywhere he went so one could never take it personally. Pete Livesey and ron Faucet stole the Moritorium and some other local projects when they first arrived in the Valley. There were Vulgarians everywhere and just to prove how much better the Valleyites were Kauk drove with Vern Clevenger to bag the second ascent of Super Crack, down-graded it and then left for the long drive home before any of the Vulgarians could sandbag them on something else. Then there are the overseas rivalities like when Rick A did the second ascent of Right Wall in Llanberris with, er, was it Mike Graham? and the Brits, Al Harris and Pete Minks couldn't (wouldn't) believe it and tried to strike back by getting Ricky really drunk on strawberry milkshakes of the adult kind the following night. I think they succeeded.....Everyone back then was convinced that their group was the best, most bitchin', and most ethical group there was and mostly we all stayed in our own little climbing areas afraid to travel around and be disappointed because, well. Maybe we weren't the best. Canadians could generally outdrink everyone. The Teton climbers could carry the heaviest packs. The Gunkies had the most outrageous attitude and the Cali climbers probably lived in the nicest, most beautiful climbing areas with the hottest women. No one really realized how talented the LOWE clan were because hardly anyone went that from beyond the California state lines to find out.
Each area had its all-stars and ethics committee. I think that generally the competition as to who was best was generally pretty friendly with not too many hard words spoken or fists exchanged.
I do remember though that whenever the Colorado contingent came to stay in Camp 4 they had Molly Higgins as their cook and she was pretty awesome at fixing great meals.

Mimi

climber

Jun 28, 2007 - 09:45pm PT

Very well summed up Bldrjac.

Russ, glad to see the fire still burns.

Tarbuster

climber

right here, right now

Jun 29, 2007 - 12:20am PT

Yes very well said Jack.

And Mussy, you are still the king of gab and mischief:
You pull a weggie on Oli and then include me with Bachar & Long!
Sheeesh, thanks fer reminding me of all that I did not accomplish, heh, heh. Here's to you...

Jello

Social climber

No Ut

Jun 29, 2007 - 01:14am PT

If you read this thread with a proper appreciation for good tongue-in-cheek humor, it's a complete riot. What's even better is I come off lookin' good, with hardly any ego at all (riiight!). That, of course, is exactly the impression I've worked for decades to cultivate. Thanks, Philo - check's in the mail...

Russ gets the prize for best troll. Snyd gets the prize for the Snyd-est remarks, and many folks like jstan, B-jac, Mr Adams and others get prizes for balanced, good-humored remarks. Oli gets his usual prize for poetic and sensitive musings which we can all appreciate and learn from, as we have done for decades, thanks to his willingness to bare his soul in all its' raw humanity. That takes more balls than an unprotected 5-whatever runout.

-TenThousandJellosDancingOnTheHeadOfAPin

Oli

Trad climber

Fruita, Colorado

Jun 29, 2007 - 03:47am PT

So many things to say, but with Alzheimer's I can't remember them all.

Shabby of me to say Holloway was a Colorado climber? Hmmm. I knew only that he lived in Boulder, and he and I bouldered a lot together, and I never knew him to live anywhere else, unless it was in his younger years, before climbing. Read the piece about him in Climbing.

Katy Brown has humbly admitted she's still trying to figure out a few of my boulder routes. She's a gem.

That comment, "climbers disdain me, take cheap shots at me, but not as cheap as mine at them," was an alteration, for comic relief, of some famous remark by some celebrity, taken by Bob Godrey totally out of context. Isolate any comment, removing it from the words leading to it or following, and it will change meaning. Anyway, I was worthy of a few cheap shots in my younger days (even now?).

It doesn't surprise me that someone should utterly misinterpret my message, spirit, tone, or intent, in my comments about Greg Lowe. The topic was rivalries. I wanted to point out that not all rivalries are bad. I've had some healthy, memorable, and inspiring ones. I would imagine many of us have. How anyone could read more into that simple point, or suggest it was somehow self-serving or vainglorious, could only be a reflection of something unsettled or missing in their own life.

And should I be disturbed or surprised that there should be people out there who assail me, using profanity and petty put-downs. I can only view these as small minds trying to assert themselves forcefully. Should I feel wounded? Having the hell beat out of me for 35 years in karate and by people far tougher than I am, a few wild swings at me (that don't even come close to landing) by one flopping around in his own chaos and vomit (like that robot gone awry in the original movie Alien) will, I promise you, mean relatively nothing.

I've always had people ready to tell me I know nothing about anything, that I can't climb my way out of a paper bag, that my writing sucks, or whatever moves them, in their mean-spiritness. No Abe Lincoln in them at all. Fortunately the people that matter know what the truth is and know me, as I am blessed to be known, in the correct light, and who know my mind and spirit. As someone mentioned, Bridwell was that kind of person. Bachar is that kind of person, a dear and respected friend who has said here what he feels about my climbing and others aspects of my life. Rich Goldstone is that kind of friend, and Jeff Lowe, and Bob D'Antonio, Robbins, Frost... Always the best spirits are the most generous. John Gill wouldn't waste his time here, listening to the latest "snide" fast gun challenging him to a draw, and he would only chuckle to hear me raked over the coals yet again. He's always told me, with his wry smile, that I should view it as an honor.

So with gratitude, I will offer a poem by e.e. cummings:

Above all, you shall be young and glad.
For if you are young,
whatever life you wear will become you.
And if you are glad,
whatever's living will yourself become.

And I will say God bless you all, and "adieu,"

Pat Ament

Rick A

climber

Boulder, Colorado

Topic Author's Reply - Jun 29, 2007 - 10:39am PT

Oli- To the contrary, the thread did not go downhill, it’s just the usual ST mix of the sublime and the ridiculous! Don’t take it personally and, as Tarbuster always says, watch out for the trolls around here.
Jello-I would agree with you that most locals I met while visiting were friendly and generous, including several mentioned above. Billy Westbay showed me around Eldorado on my first day there in 1978. Then I chanced on meeting Pat Ament there, who welcomed Gerry and I like we were family and put us up at his place.
Also Jello-re: Chamonix. When Graham and I first walked into the Bar Nationale in 1976, it may have been just a reflection of our own attitude, but to us it seemed like Hans Solo walking into the Star Wars saloon. However, we found the French and British climbers we met to be really good folk.
Henny, Dimes, Eeyonkee, BVB –Of course, the fiercest rivalry is the historic and celebrated Rubidoux-Woodson grudge match.
Jefe-Al Harris at Baldy! Very sorry I missed that.
Bruno-Well said.
Bldrjac- Jack, Thanks for the revisionist history about my adventure on the Right Wall of Dinas Cromlech. However much I would like to remember that I climbed that route; in fact, I took a lengthy fall on it and this ignominious failure was highlighted in Mountain Magazine. To be fair, it should be mentioned that Pete Livesey, who did the first ascent, had used a top rope inspection, and I was trying for the first on-sight ascent. Rob and I had little idea where it went and my main excuse is that it’s pretty hard to figure out where it goes just looking up at it. I’ve got other excuses, too.
Snyd-Bless your heart! Here’s a tip. If you want Kentucky to get more respect, it’s not enough to have great climbs and beautiful photographs of them. You need a lyrical writer like Pat Ament, or a muscular writer like John Long, to describe the adventures and personalities of the Deep South.

Tarbuster

climber

right here, right now

Jun 29, 2007 - 11:39am PT

That's pretty good Ricky,
I'll go a bit further: for the most part, I'd say rivalries are cultivated over time, owing as Jello said to the intention or "projected" attitude of the participants. I have found, upon visiting an area, that the locals rarely start straight out into a rivalry. Rivalry is an outcome of histories and series of events, typically comprising attitude, performance, & personality. They take time to develope and reflect the unique dynamic of those individuals and groups involved.

A couple brothers who used to live in the Valley visited JT once in the late 70's and I was there in the desert mid-week and got to know them. They did a lot of travelling and their advice to me was: always, when visiting an area, one might grant the locals that they are essentially the experts in their locale and generally to convey that humble attitude to the locals is to help get off to a good start. Don't run right out and attempt to snap off the test pieces, "ease into it" they said and acceptance with camraderie is more likely to follow.

Take heart Oli, you are one of the best contributors we have in this forum and your presence is a terrific honor in many ways.

"When yer a Jet yer a Jet all the way, from your first cigarette to your last dyin' day!"

West Side Story.

Jaybro

Social climber

The West

Jun 29, 2007 - 12:05pm PT

"Little boy you're a man
little man you're a king"

Tarbuster

climber

right here, right now

Jun 29, 2007 - 12:09pm PT

I'll echo what has been said, that rivalries come in all sorts of flavors: ranging from productive ones in the true spirit of active competition, which spur us on and make us stronger, to mean spirited, juvenile arse biting rivalries, which drag us down into sophomoric drivel and everything in between.

And yes Jello!
Most of what has come up here, besides actual reportage and constructive rumination, has been a type of jocular, mock, double entendre re-enactment or portrayal of silly rivalries long lost to our fading youth.

Jello

Social climber

No Ut

Jun 29, 2007 - 12:43pm PT

Walleye, those masked winter raiders on Half Dome were not Coloradans at all. It was a couple of Utah boys, Rob Keisel and Greg Lowe, 1972. They were out to test the LURP tent (Limited Use Of Reasonable Placements - a take-off on RURP), the first porta-ledge.

That makes me think of a rivalry that existed for a time in the sixties and seventies, between locals in the Canadian Rockies and visiting Americans who would go north and pluck some of the best plums. Never any open hosilities, just an undertone of a little Canadian frustration. That all went away when the local ranks were fortified by guys like Elzinga, Lauchlan, Blanchard, Blench and too many others to mention. The vast majority of the new routes in the Canadian Rockies are now established by a large local group of some of the hardest-climbing alpinists in the world.