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up2top
Big Wall climber
Phoenix, AZ
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Jun 15, 2007 - 07:46pm PT
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Yes, I do. But I do disagree with your premiss that having a hammer means you'll use it, and if you have it you'll only use it because of a lack of courage or creativity. Sometimes you'll use the hammer because it was the best choice at the moment -- courage, or lack there of, aside.
Ed
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jun 15, 2007 - 07:59pm PT
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I know what you're saying Ed, but theory and practise are often quite different.
The essense of the problem is the cumulative nature of the abuse, not the responsible maintainance. When EVERYONE becomes the self-appointed judge of what a given route requires there is no accountability and the route pays the price until the climbers of the future are left with nothing but memories.
It really makes me laugh when I hear people say of Zodiac that if it is A2 or C4 (or C3+ or whatever) that it is unfair to ask people to run the greater risk of going clean.
Wasn't it originally an A5 done solo?
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ricardo
Gym climber
San Francisco, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 16, 2007 - 03:21am PT
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ed ..
... i just did the first pitch .. its fixed enuf right now to not need any new placements ..
i dont remember how i got up to the crack .. but i did not place any new heads .. (i think i hooked a bit to get up to the crack) .. after one of the heads blew ...
... its a DFU area ... which in my opinion is OK .. its what makes the route worth climbing .. (pitches like that) -- you could break something.. but you wont die .. and with the right fixed gear (or knowledge on how to place heads) -- you should be ok ..
.. i strongly disagree that the added rivets should be placed back on P1 -- it would diminish the route.
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nick d
Trad climber
nm
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Jun 16, 2007 - 05:15am PT
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Since I am once again insomniacing out I thought I might chime in with my perspective. I'm not some super heavy, as some who post here can authentically claim, but I have been climbing for fourty years, over which time I have formed some solid opinions. Yeah, I know, opinions are like elbows, everybody has at least a couple. So here's a couple from me.
When I started climbing all the climbers I knew were solidly in the environmental movement. Style wasn't some arbitrary thing dependent on the situation, it was everything. And guess what? It still is. Just getting to the top? Doesn't mean sh#t. How you did it is the whole point of a life in climbing. I've never really idolized anyone except my mom and dad, so I'm not some hero worship kinda guy. But I know what guys like Grossman or Bridwell or Jim Erickson or Roger Briggs, etc... have done over the years, and the style they and others of their ilk is to me what climbing is all about. Why? Because they took great risks. The greater the risk, the greater the achievment. If you just want to get to the top, Fred Beckey style, hey, its your choice. I personally want to feel like I really accomplished something when I go climbing. No less of a luminary than Ernest Hemmingway said once that there were only three real sports, auto racing, bullfighting, and mountain climbing. He understood the risk ethic, why dont more actual climbers get it?
We have gone from the risk / reward ethic to one of entitlement. An earlier poster made the point of saying something along the lines of what about MY vacation? MY money spent? We went from caring about the earth to only caring about ouselves, and thats just wrong. I have never been so self assured that I felt like the cliffs and mountains were mine to use up. The biggest, best climb imaginable? When no one can tell you were there. Impossible to achieve? Maybe, but that shouldn't keep you from striving for that goal each time you leave the ground. I have been up on plenty of things that I simply wasn't good enough or brave enough to get up, so I went down.
As Jstan observed the sheer numbers of climbers mean we cannot go on as we are, something has to give. Will it continue to be the earth? All for the sake of someones tick list? Think beyond my friends.
Who am I, nobody. Is everyone here a better climber than I am? Absolutely! Is there a more opinionated FMF'er out there than me? Absolutely not! So take this for what it's worth, and thats absolutely nothing. Ha!
Michael
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raymond phule
climber
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Jun 16, 2007 - 05:51am PT
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" the lines of what about MY vacation? MY money spent?"
I did but I didn't think it was selfish in any way. There are a lot of fixed timebombs on elcap. It is IMPOSSIBLY to climb past some of them if they blow without using a hammer. It makes no sense whatsover for me to have to bail because of a fixed timebomb blow when the only possibility to climb the route again is for another party to go up there with a hammer and do some nailing.
It is just a lottery and it could also be a dangerous lottery.
We could start to say that nailing is not allowed but that would result in very few elcaps route possibly to climb in a couple of years.
Climbing etics is a mess. Some people are allowed to chisel and drill hooks and are considered as having very good etics. Some people are considered to rape the rock if they place a pin.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jun 16, 2007 - 09:50am PT
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"I did but I don't think it was selfish in any way."
"It is just a lottery and it could also be a dangerous lottery."
raymond phule, you funny! You veddy veddy funny.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jun 16, 2007 - 01:09pm PT
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The beauty of climbing is that weighty freedom. Clean, hammerless and leave no trace are worthy ideals. Some climbers meet those ideals and are able to expand our collective sense of possibility in grand adventure as Michael so eloquently pointed out.
Don't think for a second that my ability just showed up one day. Hard won skills as I've said earlier. The only difference all along has been that I have been willing to truely exhaust all options before tapping and work with what the rock provides to get by. I love bodyweight placements and don't need much for a hook or #00 RP. If you really look, the stone usually provides a way. If your focus is on a single blown out spot, it is too easy to ignore other options. Add a good dose of fear to complicate your judgment and the hammer comes out. We have all been there while learning our craft.
As a case in point, Charlie Porter was one hell of a good nailer, arguably the best. Copperheads were around when he soloed the Zodiac but were viewed as mashies, a substitute for actual nailing ability. Those guys could see where mashies were going to take aid climbing and took a personal stand by relegating copperheads to a last resort. I doubt that Charlie carried any on the Zodiac FA in 1972. Only Steve Sutton or Hugh Burton would be able to clarify that tidbit. Committment to work it out and push through the difficulty at A5 alone is totally inspiring.
When I came to climb the Tangerine Trip as my first El Cap route in 1976, I was filled with inspiration to prove myself. Despite the relatively primitive nuts available, I lead most of the route and pounded 12-15 pins in all. Right away I was forced to rectify the actual climbing with my expectations and the pin list. The take home message was that fear and anxiety on the ground are powerful factors in determining the way that a climber frames or defines a goal or challenge. If you decide to fold while sitting in camp, then that's what will come to pass. Without compelling history and tradition to bolster one's resolve and sense of potential, fear and need for security are generally going to erode will and judgment leading to the well worn and mighty ugly path of least resistance.
So please cut the elitist BS and allow some inspiration to creep in, aspiring wall climbers. You will never know what lies within until pressed to summon it. But having said that, we all gain from pushing our limits as we each know them and savor the accomplishment that big walls can provide. I am simply trying to give folks a shove toward the deeper game as Charlie Porter did to me by setting such a high standard on the Zodiac. Take it or leave it.
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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Jun 16, 2007 - 01:25pm PT
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SG-I have long been a follower of the clean way esp. since reading your chapter in "Big Walls". I thanked Robbins for popping in that little rivet on the crux of Muir, without it a clean ascent would not have been possible. It would be hypocrisy for me not to cop to throwing in a few pins when we did Zodiac in a push circa '93...situational 'ethics' are "just that"...
What strikes me is the anger at 'bols on bolders' and then no one sez a thing about "hammer in"...on the "TeMplE" of all places.
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raymond phule
climber
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Jun 16, 2007 - 04:56pm PT
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"raymond phule, you funny! You veddy veddy funny."
Why, because I am right? It is a lottery if the fixed mank is in place or will hold me. This is obvious or do you belive a number one copperhead is going to last forever?
Steve, what routes on elcap have you done without bringing on hammer?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jun 16, 2007 - 06:42pm PT
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I don't think copperheads are fair game to begin with.
"my vacation, ny money spent" isn't selfish?
C'mon RP there is going to be SOME risk to aid climbing. I don't like mank, but if everyone uses its existence as an excuse to go strapped then its gonna be bang bang!
Voila; blown placement.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jun 16, 2007 - 07:15pm PT
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Raymond- The Muir Wall on the 25th anniversary is the only hammerless ascent that I've taken on. It was the first clean ascent and a real adventure right to the end.
I also did the Salathe and Nose hammerless which was routine at the time.
If a route has been done hammerless, I would follow suit unless some maintenance work or cleanup required one.
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wayne w
Trad climber
the nw
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Jun 16, 2007 - 09:45pm PT
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Ron wrote;
Wasn't Zodiac originally A5?
There are two big blocks that fell off the route some time ago. This also had something to do with it becoming easier than when Charlie did the FA solo.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jun 16, 2007 - 09:55pm PT
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My recollection is four A5 sections originally with two on one pitch. The departure of a couple clearly expanding features is a really cool bit of history. Anybody take the ride along with either chunk or did they leave on their own?
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john hansen
climber
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Jun 16, 2007 - 11:28pm PT
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Where Robbin's placed that rivet on Muir Wall,, How did Yvon and TM get past that spot without one? And when they pulled that bolt did they replace it or is it still there?
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clustiere
Trad climber
Durango, CO
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Jun 17, 2007 - 12:57am PT
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any pics
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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Jun 17, 2007 - 11:45am PT
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John-FA led it without the bolt. Robbins had to drill. It's all laid out in one of those valley history books...i think "Vertical World of..." I don't know what you're talking about (pulled/replaced?). That POS was there 10 years ago, just rusting away...RR's Swan Song?
My partner blew our clean ascent of Mescalito, the chiwonchit...sometimes that's how it goes. I still didn't hammer, my secret weapon (a custom bent cam hook) was killing it up there....the scariest part for me was the Bismarck anyhoo (#5 tipped max, mandatory free).
It seems rare to see an El Cap rack flushed out with all the clean toys (ballz/sliderz/duckbills +++). SG, do those modified Spectres work very well?
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jun 17, 2007 - 12:41pm PT
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John- RR placed the bolt after taking a long fall while soloing the second ascent of the Muir. The fall was stopped by a RURP and I think that RR didn't like the proepects of another roll of the dice. Steve Roper's book Camp Four details the incident and is a must read anyway.
One shouldn't assume that because of his outspoken leadership role historically that his nailing skills were second to none. YC was full of praise for TM's efforts on the Muir, describing him as "never hesitating, never doubting his ability" while nailing A4 looseness. RR just wasn't in the same zone after a spell in the air or simply couldn't work it out. Only RR knows for sure.
426- Funny how large pin lists persisted long after routes had gone clean. The 82 Meyers guide still had a ten pin list for the Salathe and ten for the Nose! I travel with a pile of wires, hooks and gizmos myself. RP's and lots of micro wires are crucial to working around blown placements. I am a big ring angle claw fan and don't really need any more big hooks than that. Wide Leeper Logan hooks that have been narrowed by grinding to provide at least three intermediate widths are also very useful for unadulterated, natural hooking. Nice to find something to do with those spectre hooks though since holding falls on ice hasn't quite worked out.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jun 17, 2007 - 01:04pm PT
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"Unadulterated, natural hooking" huh? Is that even legal?
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jun 17, 2007 - 02:47pm PT
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Only out on the wild frontier.........
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raymond phule
climber
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Jun 18, 2007 - 04:52am PT
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"I don't think copperheads are fair game to begin with."
But there are a lot of them fixed on elcap. What are you going to do with them?
""my vacation, ny money spent" isn't selfish?"
I dont consider my scenario selfish.
"C'mon RP there is going to be SOME risk to aid climbing. I don't like mank, but if everyone uses its existence as an excuse to go strapped then its gonna be bang bang!
Voila; blown placement."
You doesn't seem to understand my point.
1. There exist routes on elcap that can only be climbed clean by using fixed gear, often copperheads. This is probably true for all routes except for the Nose and the Salathe and some freevariation.
2. Fixed gear is not going to hold forever.
3. The conclusion from 1 and 2 is that the fixed gear is going to blow someday and need to be replaced by using an hammer.
This should be obvious.
You propose an ethical system that says that you shouldn't even bring an hammer on these routes.
The result of this is that at same time is a party going to climb the route and encountered a blown piece, a piece that blow under testing or a fall. Their only possibility is to retreat and say to the next party should bring an hammer. My main safety concern was that it could be dangerous to retreat from high up on an Elcap route. My vacation comments was also due to this inconvience because it is just a lottery if you are the party that encountered the route in bad shape.
An other safety concern is that the fixed placements get worse over time. The fixed head could be safe above the ledge fall for the party on the first ascent and maybe even after 10 ascents but it is not going to be safe sameday (safe in the meaning bodyweight placement). The hammerless climber dont really have the opportunity to test the placement properly because he has to retreat if the piece blown during testing. To downclimb a sketchy hook sequence is probably not fun either.
Note that all these doesn't depend on a climbers skill or balls in any important way. It is just luck.
All this should be obvious and one reason why a no hammer ethical system is bad for routes that requires fixed pieces to be climbed clean and that it is not going to work out in practice.
To bring a hammer an a fixed route is simply to be prepared.
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