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WBraun
climber
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The euro bolt?
There were some bolts added behind Texas flake I believe by the body recovery team to extract (hauling system) the base jumper that had augured in behind the flake when his chute had malfunctioned.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Dude! Last time I was up by the Texas Flake, there was a rivet ladder [or were they aluminum dowel thingies?] up the ramp forming its top left side. I believe it has since been chopped.
Werner - when was it the BASE guy decked behind the flake? Eeeeeeeeesh.....
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WBraun
climber
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Don't remember the year Pete.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Talk about catching a short flight to Texas!
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Darnell
Big Wall climber
Chicago
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I havn't been on the nose in a couple of years but when I was, there was some euro type bolt, I tried to pull it but my hex/allen wrench was too small.
If Harding can do it in boot's so can we.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Werner asked:
Just what are we looking for at the top of these summits?
You, of all people, should know!
"Climbing is the lazy man's way to enlightenment. It forces you to pay attention, because if you don't, you won't succeed, which is minor or you may get hurt, which is major. Instead of years of meditation, you have this activity that forces you to relax and monitor your breathing and tread that line between living and dying. When you climb, you always are confronted with the edge. Hey, if it was just like climbing a ladder, we all would have quit a long time ago." Duncan Ferguson.
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LuckyPink
climber
the last bivy
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there has been some thread drift
I would really like to hear from Shipoopi himself
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WBraun
climber
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Gary
Just what will I do with enlightenment? All by myself in some lonely spot? I spit in disgust at the thought of enlightenment.
I just want to be the dog that serves the master.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Werner wrote: I just want to be the dog that serves the master.
Most of us want to be the master that gets serve by the dog.
What is this thread about??
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WBraun
climber
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It's about how "Willy the mountain scalar" got lost on the way to the top.
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paganmonkeyboy
Trad climber
the blighted lands of hatu
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it's not about enlightenment. it's about those fleeting moments of peace, and the sense of connection to the whole...
ymmv...
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DaveT.
Big Wall climber
southeast face portaledge
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Whoa! holy smokes, the stuff has hit the fan here on supertopo with this one. i havent posted here in a long time, but this i must contribute on. yes, a lot of this went down. how do i know this? i was climbing with steve the whole time, and was caught in the middle of all of this, as everyone involved in this mess are friends of mine. let me first state that yes, steve was hurt a bit in this, but had no real damage done, as we were back climbing on the torre a few days later. and here goes my interpretation of what happened, but littlecottonwood posted pretty much everything.
josh and zack showed up to erase the compressor route"s lead bolts, if they could skip most, if not all of them, on their way to the summit. link natural features of the compressor route, re-climb some other failed attempted variations, and establish some new variations as well. and then pull them out on the way down. a very big job it was going to be, they new it. controversial? they knew that it would be. did they tell steve and i? no. should they have? i am staying out of the comments!. but let me state something about josh and zack right now. i consider both of them friends of mine, and would climb with either one of them if it ever popped up. they are good guys, very capable of climbing at difficult grades, and there is no tensions between them and i.
yes, steve got real pissed off at the two of them, and took down the poles from their tent(they were borrowing it from bean), without damaging it in any way. that afternoon, steve found josh and yelled at him. the next day bean and steve had their encounter. three days later, we were all back at the torre.
josh and zack climbed thier proposed line as best they could, using the headwall bolts and all belays. super proud and visionary, i was one of the first to congradulate them as they rapped past us up on the stone. and no, they did not make the summit. it was too cold and windy, is what they told me. does the last mushroom count? no comment, form your own opinions. was the article misleading? i am not sure, i am going to read it next. but i can see both sides of the argument, pro and con. niether is cut and dry, but hey, i dont really care. it is not my problem. but yes, the argentines want the route to stay, and in the end they have the final word. i can see where this guy little cottonwood is coming from, although i dont know him. he, as well as other local climbers, are pissed that some gringos came here "cowboy style"(quote from an argentine to me) to do what they wanted to on something that wasnt theirs. i told steve about this link, we might hear from him soon.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Dave, thanks for sharing what happened. So they had a plan to chop if they had done it without any bolt ladders, but shelved the plan when they used the headwall bolt ladder.
Edit: Here's the chronology, thanks to Steve's account for clearing up some details:
They don't announce their plans to the public in advance, but rumors surface at the main base camp.
Apparently they try their crowbar out on one of Maestri's bolts, but it doesn't work, so they make a trip to get "clippers" to make the hangers unusable unstead.
Steve finds out they have a crowbar in their rack at their high camp (or maybe at the base).
Steve collapses tent, yells at Josh, gets shoved by Bean.
Josh and Zack climb Cerro Torre to top of headwall; 100 MPH winds prevent them from doing the final mushroom.
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guest
climber
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Indeed, quite the thread. I've spoken with Josh about this. He and I are good friends, he's of utmost integrity and honesty, and he's probably the most level headed person I know. I've emailed with Bean about it as well. Considering that many people here have ripped on Josh and Bean without knowing the facts, I wanted to add a few things. Also, I should note up-front that individual interpretations of events can differ greatly, as we all know. Perhaps Steve remembers things differently than Josh does. But anyway, a few things to consider:
--Steve (whom I've met and think highly of, but hey, everybody f*#ks up) verbally threatened Josh in Bridwell Camp. Josh told me this personally. Steve said, among other things (like "You're done, dude, you're done! F*#k you! F*#k you!"), that he was going to "kick his ass" and had said he was going to find their stuff at high camp (Polacos, I believe) and throw it in a crevasse. This wasn't a "discussion" (which Josh, being incredibly level-headed, is capable of having about anything), but rather Steve ranting and yelling at Josh for an hour or more, Josh not engaging him in the yelling/freaking, while several people with Steve stood by. Josh, on the other hand, was alone. Apparently a Venezuelan climber there caught it all on video tape. Steve subsequently realized that he was way out of line, as he repeatedly, sincerely apologized to Josh and Zach a day or two later, admitting that he "lost it." Again, we all f*#k up, and it sounds like Steve went overboard on this one.
--Josh was super shaken-up by Steve's tirade and threats, and talked to Bean about storing his stuff at Bean's house (btw, in terms of the "local" thing, Bean is American but he also lives part-year in Chalten, has a little cabin there and is part of the local community). Bean, not one to take sh#t and also one with enough integrity to stand up for his friends, confronted Steve about it, then grabbed him, tripped him to the ground, and verbally went off on him. Bean didn't hit Steve -- Steve wasn't hurt, despite, it sounds, being fairly dramatic about things (arm in a sling, hospital for X-rays; yet miraculously went bouldering and climbing a day or two after...). Had Bean hit Steve, surely we'd know because there would have been real damage.
--To all those universally deriding Bean for getting a little physical against Steve (some pretty minor physicality, really; if you don't think so, you've lived a very sheltered existence), I have a couple of thoughts:
1. I strongly suspect you've never had someone threaten you, your property, or someone you care about.
2. If this does happen to you (since it'd be a new experience to you and you likely wouldn't know whether to sh#t or go blind), you'll wish you had friends like Bean. I greatly respect Bean's standing up for Josh & Zach. It's bullshit to act like Bean did something wrong when Steve made physical threats to Josh & Zach and their property. What, it's OK to intimidate and make threats (Josh is as non-violent as they come, and was super shaken-up by Steve's actions and threats), but not OK for someone to step in and end it? If you're going to make threats, like Steve did, then be f*#king ready to keep it going and don't start whining when someone (like Bean) comes along and calls you on it and puts you in your place. What bullsh#t. What should Josh and Josh's friends done, given Steve a hug in response to Steve's threats of physical harm? BTW, thanks to Bean, Steve's antics ended there. Done.
--Not all of the Argentine climbers down there think Josh & Zach's idea was a bad one, especially since their hope was to climb the route while minimizing use of the 300+ bolts. As evident by the length of this thread, this is a controversial issue with many opinions, imagine that. To those noting how "wrong" it is for visiting climbers to chop a route on Argentine soil -- which is a decent point, I should add -- don't forget that Cesare Maestri is not Argentine, either. He's the one who did the "Murder of the Impossible" in drilling the 300+ bolts in the first place. So, this visiting climber was free to do what he wants to Cerro Torre, but others aren't? Hmmm... Of course we can go back-and-forth, never-ending, on right/wrong, leave-as-is/undo, etc, but I haven't seen this mentioned and it's certainly worth considering.
--Final note (I'm almost done, I promise), regarding reporting of ascents, spraying one's self up, etc. Of the handful of friends Josh sent an email to about all this, one of those friends does some online news reports and he'd already heard about the fiasco down there. Also, since some climbers, including some of Josh's friends, work in the climbing media, it isn't suprising that word gets out. Just because something becomes publicized in a news report it doesn't necessarily mean that the climber(s) went and send a "press release" to the mags or were looking for glory--although certainly some climbers do this as well. Furthermore, I think it's fair to assume that anybody reading this has an interest in what happens in the climbing world, including reading about inspirational ascents, attempts, and the much-loved fiascos. Sh#t, what would all 120+ of us posting here have to piss and moan about otherwise? Easy to get high-and-mighty, often, I've noticed, with a tone of self-righteousness, about how "me & McGillicutty did something way radder but never felt the need to tell anybody," and that's fine if you want to be like that, but it's ironic to see that very sentiment sprayed in a web forum. Plus, how many of us exist in such a vacuum that we haven't found inspiration (or, at least, entertainment) in reading about the accomplishments and trials of others?
--Kelly Cordes
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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It's great to get the perspectives from all sides, and there are always all sides.
Many kudos to Steve for telling the story as unvarnished as possible and owning up to the mistakes on his part. That's real humanity and the kind of attitude that I wish was more common.
There is certainly no absolute right or wrong regarding the bolts up there although I strongly come down on the side of keeping them.
That said, you can bet I'll never go up there to clip em. Somebody asked me to do the compressor route with them recently and I could only laugh and point them to the kind of guys who were up there climbing it this season.
Best to all involved and may forgiveness and understanding rule the day
Karl
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shipoopoi
Big Wall climber
oakland
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just the facts, maam
well, didnīt really mean to cause an international incident. i mean, most people know me as a fun loving guy that loves to poke fun at himself and other blondes. but, here goes..
when i got to chalten i heard rumours that my friends josh and zack wanted to chop the compressor route, but seeing as how they did not say anything about it to me, i left it alone. and then i heard they were actually up there with a crowbasr experimenting with bolt removal. this, while ten international expeditions were lined up to do the route. and i just snapped and threw the wobbler of the milliniem. seems they were not really caring about me, their friend climbing the route, or all the rest of us that were there. so, what i did was
walk down to bridwell and carefully remove their poles from their basecamp tent(actually bean bowerīs tent), what i thought was a harmless prank, but it was a loser move, and disrespectful of zack and josh. then i went to town and verbally berated josh in front of a few people, swearing at him, and disavowing our friendship, and oh yeah, threatening him physically. that was pretty blonde of me, josh is a big guy. to his credit he sat and took it like a man, and later, when i came to my senses, told him how rad he was for maintaining his cool. next morning zack and josh took my partner, dave turner, and i out for coffee. pretty nice gesture. while i was a bit more civil, i hadnīt slept at all the last two nights and i was pretty worked up. told them to get out of town, and if they did not go get their rack soon, i would go hide it from them thinking that would save the compressor route for a year anyway. that was like loser move number three. i mean, zack, bless his blonde heart told me how when he was growing up and reading the mags that i was one of his heroes. anyway, after agreeing to disagree, they went and told their friend bean bowers and he came and found me. pulled up on his bike, i said hi bean and put out my hand. he threw the bike down and then threw me down. that guy is as quick as lightning. i mean it was over before the bell stopped ringing. anyway, i came down pretty hard on my elbow, and thought it was broke. i was scared, crying, and pleading with him not to hurt me anymore. be curious to see the video on that one. as the ambulance took me to the hospital, i began to realize what a i had been. indeed, i am embarassed and ashamed with my actions and they way i handled it. should of just talked out our differences over a berr or three. anyway, xrays proved negative, but it was bruised and hurting, still hurts a bit, but i would be able to climb again.
so, in the aftermath, there was a huge climbers meeting that night with a discussion of whether to chop or not to chop the route. then there was a vote, and it was about ten to one in favor of leaving the route as is. so ,while iīm not pleased at how i handled it, iīm at least glad i said something because nobody else was willing to talk to zack and josh about the matter cause they are such badass climbers.
and, iīve personally apologized to zack, josh, and bean(bean by email) for being such a jerk. i think zack and i are ok, heīs a pretty forgiving guy, and even let me roll a drum cigarette form his stash later on the mountain. talk about a nice peacepipe. josh and i are another matter, and i can see it in his eyes that he is less than estatic with me...and that really hurts, hope i have not blown it with him.
and about bean, someone had to knock me off the high horse i was riding, although i think he could have been a bit gentler. iīve told him iīm sorry that my actions compelled him to do what he did. i harbor no hard feelings against this man, and ask that everybody else do the same. to those of you who were willing to toe it up with bean on my behalf, thank you, but letīs just kind of see if we can all forgive and forget. sometimes patagonia does things to people that you would not normally see at home.
and as for the compressor route...well, it ainīt no freaking via ferrata, and in fact is still an extreme route requiring skill, luck, and courage to send. this was my third expedition to climb the bitch, with a new hi9ghpoint of pitch 8, only 20 more to go...whooopie. its hard, believe me.
to bolt or not to be. i feel that the route should remain as is. you have got to respect the tradition that this route represents, that it was put up a long time ago by a world class mountaineer, and that people are lined up every year to either strut their stuff or get stuffed while strutting on this classic climb. removing the bolts would only serve to satisfy the egos of a few misguided elitist. sure, iīve heard the arguments. the route is a desecration to the mountain, there are just a ridiculous amount of bolts, letīs make people climb the mountain on its own terms and blah, blah, blah. i say let democracy rule, i mean, ten to one in favor keeping the route the same in a vote by 6o patagonian climbers, thatīs something.
another note, some people feel that this is a matter for the argentines to decide, not the american cowboys. i disagree. tom frost once told me "nobody owns the rock steve". i think everybody has a say in the matter, especially those of us wanting to repeat the route, and the many that want to come in the future. sincerely, Steve "shipoopoi" Schneider
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Jacko
Trad climber
Grass Valley Ca.
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As a once a year climber and arm chair Mountaineer, this has been good sh#t!Most of us would give our left nut, just to stand at the base and look up at the famous Compressor Route on Cerro Torre.Respect and admiration for Steve for telling the story and taking responsibility for his bad in the fiasco...Thanks for some climbing related good reading..Jacko
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WBraun
climber
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Great stuff and BIG F'CKIN DEAL, whoopie-T-do, as for the fighting goes.
We loose it sometimes, who hasn't. I've seen a good deal of it over the years, so nothing new there.
Glad you all patched it up, and props to all of you for your attempts to climb the "Tower".
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SuperTopo on the Web
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The guys who bypassed most of it in 1999 didn't chop it.
Let us know!