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Rattlesnake Arch
Social climber
Home is where we park it
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Dec 15, 2018 - 09:22am PT
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It should be noted that Alex's Free Solo persona was created from roughly 700 hrs of filming that was frequently quite invasive. A very capable and accomplished (woman) Director was largely responsible for digging through the footage and stitching together those fleeting moments that would create the Alex she wanted the audience to experience. Alex was made to appear callous, uncaring, and misogynistic at times but I wouldn't take that to necessarily be representative of him as a person.
I don't know Alex personally but thought he came across as intelligent, amusing, and brutally honest.
BTW I very much liked the movie and found none of it to be toxic, nor do I believe it was created with toxic intent.
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Trump
climber
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Dec 15, 2018 - 10:12am PT
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wtf is wrong with people?
It’s kind of one way to look at it, and it seems to be the way most people DO look at it, but framed more like “wtf is wrong with OTHER people.”
Me, I aspire to try to understand it more from a perspective of “wtf is right with people?”
So yes, her criticisms of whiteness and maleness and toxic masculinity are probably largely on point. But for me, I prefer to try to understand them in a context of 4 billion years of survival of the fittest, and what we did and do (in our beliefs and behaviors) in order to get to and maintain our present position in that contest for supremacy.
And sure, anonymous posters, and pussies, and I’m so brave and righteous for posting using my own name. That’s cool, props to y’all.
But the other side of it is that for those anonymous posters, their anonymity might free them from the social effects and consequences of saying and believing what they truly believe, without that being affected and modified by the social constraints of the social consequences and the social influences that have become (over 4 billion years of survival of the fittest) so highly effective at warping people’s beliefs in self-confirming tribal ways. Maybe they’re just not that drawn to admiring their own braveness. Maybe they’re not that drawn to biasing their own and other people’s relationship to ideas and beliefs as a result of an attachment to social interpersonal relationship dynamics.
So in all regards, sure, go for it, help us understand what’s wrong with OTHER people.
For me, I prefer to understand what’s right with them, especially to the extent that doing so makes me feel like they and I are part of the same we. Given our current position in the battle for supremacy, there must be something very powerfully right about what we humans do.
And for some reason, as a human, when push comes to shove, I’m not so inclined to see those same qualities being expressed in me as something that is wrong with me. I either don’t notice them in myself, or devise clever mental schemes for approving of them in myself, while criticizing them in others.
For me, I’m hoping to understand that in a way that unites us, rather than to just have it be expressed in my beliefs and behaviors in a way that works to my individual or tribal advantage.
You? Don’t do it my way, do it your way, and I’ll aspire to try to understand what’s right about that. And I expect that there are some drawbacks to my way of doing it.
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capseeboy
Social climber
portland, oregon
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Dec 15, 2018 - 10:59am PT
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Part of the mythology that they’ve been teaching you is that you have no power.
I have never got this message from anyone. If anything, the message has been: go for it, why don't you do that, stop making excuses, that's great, go follow the beat of your own drum, what are you waiting for.
Well, you go grrrl! LOL
Edit: The pen is mightier than the sword. BS many still die for expressing their opinions.
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KyleO
Gym climber
Calgary, AB
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Dec 15, 2018 - 12:39pm PT
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Cultural marxism and narcissistic radical feminism at its finest.
You can attribute these sort of articles to the domination of these marxist ideologies, indoctrinating the schools and universities throughout north america.
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Dec 15, 2018 - 12:53pm PT
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Alex was mean to his girlfriend?
She dropped him twice and chose to be with a famous and rich climber and wants him to change his life. Can we talk about toxic feminism?
I lead with the following statistic: 95% of jobsite fatalities are men. The backlash that you call misogyny is more likely an appeal to reason. We made it through history working together to build families and community.
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KyleO
Gym climber
Calgary, AB
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Dec 15, 2018 - 01:02pm PT
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And what do you attribute Misogyny (far more prevalent including this thread)?
But I get it, when you feel threatened your's is a common response.
Cultural marxism is the ideology that western civilization is a result of oppression, through toxic patriarchal structures, of the oppressed. This has nothing to do with misogyny and you should look into what exactly marxism is before you ask about definitions of misogyny.
Also "your's is" is terrible grammar, maybe focus on brushing up your grammar. It might make your argument as a social justice warrior a little stronger, on paper at least.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Dec 15, 2018 - 01:11pm PT
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That's not a grammatical error. You are just insisting that he spell yours in Canadian.
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KyleO
Gym climber
Calgary, AB
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Dec 15, 2018 - 01:21pm PT
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When you are indicating possession, yours is the correct choice, not your’s. You do not need an apostrophe to indicate possession because yours itself is a possessive pronoun.
Hope this clarifies it for your's ideas.
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Binks
climber
Uranus
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Dec 15, 2018 - 01:47pm PT
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This ideology she perpetuates is about as useful as a genital wart. It's as easy (and also incorrect or overly simplistic at least) to make the opposite argument, that women have been exploiting men for their labor and protection throughout all history at men's expense and that therefore women are the 'privileged' ones. The "woke" couldn't me more asleep. They have a lot of adherents, similar to how "new age goddess" thinking did. Sure, all women are goddesses, that makes sense, lol. This crap is just the latest delusion and the B.S. is a script that writes itself, no wonder the older generations roll their eyes.
Also this stupid idiot author doesn't even mention Lynn Hill. These people know nothing and apply their script to everything.
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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Dec 15, 2018 - 02:18pm PT
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Dec 15, 2018 - 09:22am PT
It should be noted that Alex's Free Solo persona was created from roughly 700 hrs of filming that was frequently quite invasive. A very capable and accomplished (woman) Director was largely responsible for digging through the footage and stitching together those fleeting moments that would create the Alex she wanted the audience to experience. Alex was made to appear callous, uncaring, and misogynistic at times but I wouldn't take that to necessarily be representative of him as a person.
I don't know Alex personally but thought he came across as intelligent, amusing, and brutally honest.
BTW I very much liked the movie and found none of it to be toxic, nor do I believe it was created with toxic intent.
Right on. The author of the essay would do better to write about Trump and the evil republican party that continues to attack our health care, environment, and anything else they get their hands on.
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AE
climber
Boulder, CO
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Dec 15, 2018 - 03:03pm PT
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So, I guess Monahan didn't like it?
Watched "Free Solo" in a near-full theatre, which even in Boulder was not likely to have been an all-climber crowd. Enthusiasm and awe was prevalent afterwards. Also saw the Dawn Wall in a smaller arthouse where many women including Lynn Hill were viewing, if I remember right. None seemed bothered by Tommy's life choices. So that makes us all complicit, as well?
As to climbing being another bastion of male parochial empire, why were figures from Ruth Mendenhall to Bonnie Pruden to Lynn Hill and Steph Davis left out of Monahan's sophomoric screed? I'd forgotten how much rock and alpine soloing Catherine Destivelle did twenty-plus years ago. Her existence didn't support the argument, so was also left out.
I do want to say that over the years I have had opinions about climbing being a Peter Pan existence; that some resent rich white entrepreneurs of the Outdoor Industry who buy vast land tracts in South America to preserve from local destruction; that the freedom to be Kerouac On the Road footloose relies upon a sense of innate strength many never have available, and that those antisocial behaviors are idealized as virile displays. Of course, through the 1950's and 60's society did not venerate, even condone, but did condemn such outrageous misbehavior. Monahan doesn't apparently read beyond her strident small library of certified proto-feminist works. And the tirade unleashed in her essay takes morsels of sociological theory, and blows them all up into a Grand Unifying Theory of White Men Did All Things Bad, and Alex Honnold Proves It.
It just simply read like an undergrad paper regurgitating the more extreme misandrous manifestos. Conflation taken to the next level needs to be challenged. Alex did not assist in stealing Yosemite from indigenous people, and certainly was personally and historically removed from "all of the lives that have been taken for him to be able to be in the position he is in today."
We are all born into our own skins, white or otherwise, and the reverse racism that condemns us for that seems laughable. We can be sensitive to cultural atrocities of the past, and our nation has come around to a number of concessions in attempts to rectify past tragedies. We can be sensitive to how the past has led to lingering issues, and work to avoid perpetuating them. What we can't do is paint every sort of psychological interaction as a consequence of white male misogyny, and declare every behavior, even apparently socially beneficial ones, as contaminated, simply if the "perpetrator" comes from that reviled group of white men.
It is puerile to demand perpetual white privileged hand-wringing over sins of great-grandfathers - and, strangely, demands of minorities that they remain perpetual victims over generations, as well, to retain that dynamic. Sanni was young, but an adult who sought Alex out at an event; she has chosen to bond with him, in a complicated relationship, where each has the ability to leave, and neither has leverage aside from the emotional ties all relationship accrue. By caring about Alex, she tried to influence his decisions, like the old cliche, "I love you just the way you are, now change." Must she identify as a victim now, too? Who is really the perpetrator of victimhood, Alex, or Monahan? Because to me, her self-ingratiating essay is "I'm More Woke Than Thou."
Overall, since my climbing introduction in 1968, women were always in the club, and feminism was integral to the idea of equal participation. Ed February was climbing with white climbers in South Africa while Mandela was in prison, and I have always felt my climbing community was more inclusive and ahead of the curve in matters of equality and fairness in both race and gender.
Did Lynn Hill's twenty-fifth anniversary return to the Nose represent an "Epidemic of Toxic Femininity"? Her first free ascents of the Nose were not only mammoth accomplishments for any climber, but demonstrations of what any person might strive for. Must we diminish her by a certain percentage, for being white, albeit female? How, exactly, does ms. Monahan's scoreboard place a Lynn Hill?
"It goes, boys" is one of the great lines of all time, a climber's "One step for..." It may be a sly wink to those who may have not expected her achievement, for a girl, sure; but she has had a greater impact on thousands of strong women, in a direct way that Monahan's humorless vitriol will never reach.
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Jeff G
Trad climber
Fort Collins
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Dec 15, 2018 - 03:10pm PT
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^^^^^^^
AE,
Well written and perfectly on target. Thank you!
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Aeriq
Sport climber
100-year Visitor
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Dec 16, 2018 - 08:22pm PT
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Can anyone remember a time when masculinity wasn't a bit toxic? seek, destroy, subjugate/enslave - it's kind of in our nature?
With the exception of some monastic/altruistic sects - and throw in an undiscovered tribe here and there - I am hard pressed to find a modern equivalent...
Additionally, one may have to go back many generations to avoid any kind of "cultural appropriation" - and how does that differ from adaptation of others' way for survival and advancement within one's own tribe? When exactly does that become "wrong"?
The clarity is lacking in many regards - just saying...
Angry white girl helps how much more than angry white guy?
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mikeyschaefer
climber
Sport-o-land
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Dec 16, 2018 - 10:38pm PT
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I’d think climbers would be smart enough to determine that it wasn’t Sanni’s fault Alex was lowered off the end of his rope. She was a total beginner at the time and Alex takes her to a crag with a short/chopped rope, doesn’t tell her to watch the end and he doesn’t tie a knot in it. Given the huge difference in experience their is no way that was Sanni’s fault. Alex was in the leadership/guide role in that partnership and he should of been aware of the length of his rope and the fact that it wouldn’t reach the ground.
And when is the second time Sanni dropped him? If you mean when Alex fell on Freeblast? That had nothing to do with Sanni belaying. I just can’t believe people continue to blame Sanni for this stuff. People don’t seem to think Alex can actually f*#k up?
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Dec 17, 2018 - 06:30am PT
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Thank you AE for your eloquent insight.
Respect.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Dec 17, 2018 - 07:18am PT
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Tarbuster. +1
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Dec 17, 2018 - 07:38am PT
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She dropped him twice and chose to be with a famous and rich climber and wants him to change his life. Can we talk about toxic feminism?
Formerly known as P Whuppin'.
Thank you Tarbuster, AE & others who eloquently critiqued this article.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 17, 2018 - 07:56am PT
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A guy goes climbing on a rock and st00pid people tax their brains over it .....
Wasting their time not knowing who they really are and why they are even here and where they are really going .....
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Dec 17, 2018 - 08:11am PT
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If there's a weakness in what Erin wrote which is worth noting, it's that there is little in it that is particularly unifying, though she does try to outline a way forward. If I have a criticism, it's that she risks perpetuating the feminine-masculine schism through her casting of aspersions.
If anyone's interested in reading a sober and detailed account of the biological, evolutionary, and behavioral differences between men and women and the problems wrought therein (for millennia), that also points to a means of integration, unification, and solution, try this:
Sex and War: How Biology Explains Warfare and Terrorism and Offers a Path to a Safer World
 Once in Amazon, click on the "look inside" feature on the left side of the screen to see the table of contents. It's not light reading, but it's important reading and definitely on-topic.
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