Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Rattlesnake Arch
Social climber
Home is where we park it
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 5, 2018 - 06:14am PT
|
For those of us in Las Vegas, tickets just went on sale here this morning. The dates aren't showing yet on the National Geographic website, but Regal Red Rocks Stadium 16 has the film showing 6 times a day for 6 days starting Oct. 19th. That's a lot of available seats at one venue for a climbing flick.
Kudos to Alex and the rest of the crew!
|
|
Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
|
|
Solo is an eye opener to the general public. Quite naturally, we seek to quantify the motivation and risks Alex took, simply because we can. Or we can try to. But regarding human performance, statistical analysis can be a slippery slope.
Why? For starters, no two people, not even identical twins, share exactly the same background and upbringing, have had the same conversations in the same words, have read the same books or magazines or newspapers at exactly the same time, or done anything the same as anyone else. This fact is precisely the opposite of what is necessary to statistics -- that there are similarities that give significance to the variables.
There are, of course, some factors that many people have in common with other people, and upon them statistics depend. These factors can include the society in which they live, their social class, whether they are urban, suburban or rural; their relationships -- most people have had a mother and father, perhaps siblings, friends of the same or opposite sex; and their interests: sports, television, reading science fiction or mysteries or romances. Of course, not everybody fits into all categories. Again, all people are different, but they do share things in common.
What the above means is that no statistic has any application to an individual, but can have an application to the group. However, the statistics are determined on the basis of studying individuals in the group, not studying the group. Problem is, individuals change, not only from year to year but from moment to moment.
Second, individuals are inconsistent. What they like today they may hate the next. You may love spaghetti, but eat it five days in a row, and you may find the thought of eating it again nauseating.
Third, individuals often don't know what they want, and even if they do, they often don't know or can't tell you why.
But that doesn't stop us from trying to say: Ahhhh, THAT'S why he did it, and the risk quotient was (fill in the blank).
|
|
mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
|
|
Fine analysis, Largo. Good points about group vs. individuals in the group.
Early in the day, too. Have a good one.
|
|
JLP
Social climber
The internet
|
|
Largo - that post is absolutely delusional - every word of it.
Happiness first is being alive. Closely following is a dedication to reality and a healthy set of boundaries. Living like you’re immortal, that the laws of physics and probability do not apply - believing you can fly around above it all like superman - is not happiness, it’s a display of mental illness.
Everyone in the movie including Alex (to a degree) acknowledged the extreme danger and the statistical reality of eventually something going wrong. It’s a lie and a complete misinterpretation of his story to say what he did was made safe. Alex systematically removed the fear and found the easiest and thus safest possible passage - but that ascent overall was anything but safe - it was possibly the most dangerous thing ever done in climbing. Alex somehow decided the danger was worth the reward.
It’s not knocking his accomplishment to say so - it was at the same time one of the most amazing things ever done in climbing.
Totally safe and in control here:
[Click to View YouTube Video]
|
|
Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
|
|
This year we have made risk discussions like this a part of the rock climbing culture. Sad.
Why is it sad? Risk is the elephant in the trad room. Risk is an essential part of the experience. Sure, we spend great sums of money to stack the odds in our favor with gear and technique. However, I suspect most trad climbers yearn to expand their ability to run-out "easier" terrain. Who hasn't foregone gear placement in order to motor through to the next good stance. Risk is what makes it trad. Alex has merely taken it to the extreme, happens in all activities.
Alex made a spectacle of the Nose climb precisely so people would talk about it, and any discussion will necessarily include a risk/benefit analysis. At the end of the day it is just another movie. I doubt it will change he culture. How many climbers sit around and talk about risk. Sure we talk about crap gear placements or run-outs, but I doubt a movie is going to change climber's discussion into anything the general public discusses about Free Solo. Sure, a few more climbers will attempt solo ascents, but change the culture, I doubt it.
|
|
Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
|
|
I’ll try one more time and then you can wax on uninterrupted. The odds with a coin flip are the same for everyone....50% for heads, 50% for tails regardless of the previous coin flips. You are not breaking new ground with that assertion. Alex doing ,say, 1000 pitches of free soloing without falling has no relationship to your analogy.
Donini is right and I'll try to expand a little. First of all, for the coin flip analogy to be valid, the odds of anyone falling while free soloing El Cap must be the same--whether for Alex Honnold or some random n00b. Secondly, while AH was clearly exposing himself to serious risk by his free solo, there's no way his odds of failure were 50%, as with a coin toss.
Curt
|
|
Klimmer2.0
Mountain climber
San Diego, CA
|
|
Finally saw it last night in San Diego, in La Jolla. Why did it open a week later in San Diego? When will this LA rivalry end??? San Diego is hands down better and everyone knows it, yet we get treated like the bastard step-child all the time. Lol.
Anyway, great documentary. I enjoyed it immensely. I busted up on all the dead-pan responses that Alex had about everything. He's actually really very funny. He has a great sense of humor whether he knows it or not. Great story. Unbelievable nerves of steel to solo that entire climb in one fluid go. State of the art. Set the bar into another space, time, and dimension truly. He did it. He never has to do it again. Total respect. Who will possibly step up and try it or try to surpass it???
He has a great girl-friend. Hopefully he'll make her his wife. Teach her better and she will do very well. She didn't have to drop him belaying. She should have been tied into the end of the rope always. Shouldn't have happened. Teach your loved ones to climb well and be safe. No mistakes.
My wife loved the movie also. She really liked how they opened Alex up emotionally. She can relate. She had a very similar upbringing. She gets him.
After seeing the movie, I had dreams last night about climbing El Cap in similar form, and then coming upon the team filming. The movie had a big effect on me. I've thought about it a lot today. Just simply WOW!
I would love to be able to have the talent and lack of fear to do something so bold as what Alex has done. I get it. I understand. Total respect for Alex's abilities and nerve of steel. Some easy solos I've done in the Sierras and Alps but they were well within my ability. But the fall factor was still there; It would have been life ending. I'm not too keen to do that anymore without the rope. It was a pleasure to do at the time and I love that feeling of control, I get it, but the risks really are too great in this lifetime. I want to be able to climb and adventure so I can keep doing all the outdoor sports I love: climbing, skiing, paragliding, free diving/scuba diving, SUP, all the rest of my life and die in my sleep of old age in my wife's and my kids arms.
In the lifetime to come, I look forward too and I will climb all the spectacular routes and enchain them all that I dream about doing but I lack the nerve, the skill and the strength now to do. This life isn't all there is. There is eternity with a perfect spiritual body that is of prime age, strength, and ability. We will have the ability to be spiritual one moment and physical the next. No fear. Just joy. All our dreams will be possible. Fall off of Freerider, no problem, levitate and just get back on. I look forward to doing all of that someday.
Alex thanks for showing us the future in this lifetime. You are way, way, far ahead of us all. Good job!
PS,
Sure wish the full size movie poster was available for purchase, the one that they ran as an ad in NG magazine. I would love to purchase it and then get it autographed by Alex and then get it framed. Amazing accomplishment by all: Alex, Jimmy Chin, et al.
2 thumbs up!! Definitely gonna see it again.
|
|
skywalker1
Trad climber
co
|
|
Just saw it. Really well done as would be expected. Interesting to get an insight to his mannerism. I don't want to give a spoiler. I thought it was interesting how the film crew handled things. Great documentary. See it if you can on the big screen.
S....
|
|
DebLee
Trad climber
Around, About
|
|
The Boulder Problem is rated V7 with a fatal fall. There are highball boulder problems much harder than this with a dangerous fall at the crux that might send you to the nursing home or conceivably be fatal. Why do boulderers routinely send the highballs, yet only one climber has the ability to free solo El Cap?
|
|
Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
|
|
I would guess that only Alex has the ability to hold it together mentally for 3000 feet
|
|
DebLee
Trad climber
Around, About
|
|
I would guess that only Alex has the ability to hold it together mentally for 3000 feet
Yes, but much of the climb must be cruise-o-matic to him, with a few crux sections.
|
|
wbw
Trad climber
'cross the great divide
|
|
Why do boulderers routinely send the highballs, yet only one climber has the ability to free solo El Cap?
Might have something to do with the half-mile of exposure encountered while pulling the thumb undercling thing followed by the karate kick. Don't think they make crash pads for that situation.
My kids and I thought the movie was very compelling.
|
|
JLP
Social climber
The internet
|
|
The Boulder Problem is incredibly technical and insecure. It is absolutely THE reason El Cap took so long to see a free solo. You can overpower a lot of V7's to make up for a lack of perfect technique, but not this one. Most elite climbers, by far, go up there and take falls.
Comparing this to a highball boulder problem? What a joke. However, go get a rope and see how you do up there - like everyone else who ends up as an aid climber. The Freerider sees nearly non-stop traffic, but only a few teams per year, at most, actually free it.
Just as a pitch isn't rated by its hardest move, you can create a 13a, for example, with a sum of moves as low as V3/4ish. Beer Run, Pumporama, Fugitive, etc, are good examples. If you're solid on V3/V4 you'll have little trouble getting through the cruxes - but GFL on the redpoint.
Freerider is the same way. Everyone looks at the "mere 12+" sections, and there's only a few of them, and oh look at all the 5.10 (you don't see how physical it is on the topo...) - what could possibly be so difficult?
Then they find out.
IMO, rough estimating, if you can't put down mid 13 quickly, you're not going to send the Freerider without a TON of rehearsal. If 12+ is a hard redpoint for you, you will not send at all - ever.
Even with moderate rehearsal, as most successful ascents end up doing, it seems to me, they are in the 13b ish quick redpoint spectrum - the ones who actually manage to send Freerider using the standard plan and logistics.
If you want a chance to get it first try ground up, maybe even with a few falls and you get a few pitches 2nd or 3rd try - this kind of free ascent rarely happens even though it's the most tried - it's probably more like the ability to quickly put down a 13+/14- or more - plus you have considerable big wall experience.
Thus - comparing this to a highball - like you just sit there on your giant stack of 30 pads and 30 spotters until you're good and ready and oh gosh how sik and scary this thing is - you're still just a kid living in your mom's basement.
|
|
JLP
Social climber
The internet
|
|
Dean Potter climbed Dean climbed a very secure couple 100 ft of 5.11 as a stunt for the cameras, there's no comparison. WTF did he call that thing - Easy Rider?
You're left with Auer. The Fish is on my bucket list, can't really compare.
|
|
dhayan
climber
culver city, ca
|
|
Are you sure he freed the nose? Aren’t you thinking of Jorg Verhoeven?
|
|
JLP
Social climber
The internet
|
|
You're right - all those euros seem like the same person to me!
|
|
dhayan
climber
culver city, ca
|
|
Honnold is an anomaly, i never expected even him to do it or see anyone do it in my lifetime. There are plenty of incredible climbers out there but none with the genuine desire to free solo el cap. Watching him do the boulder problem, even him having it so “dialed”, was fuked up.
I was pretty excited to see the film but after watching it something just doesn’t sit well with me about the production around this kind of event, even though it was an amazing film, a completely mind blowing achievement (I’ll always remember where i was that day i heard about it) and obviously turned out okay.
|
|
JLP
Social climber
The internet
|
|
So if its not length or difficulty, a V15(or V10) climber should have enough margin to do a V7 boulder problem up high If this is your question, you will not understand the answer until you go try. Go for it.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!