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Chief
climber
The NW edge of The Hudson Bay
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What terrible news.
Condolences to the families and friends of these dedicated athletes and apparently good people.
From the information shared so far, it appears the direct cause may have been a fall on marginal gear while simul climbing on relatively moderate terrain?
An indirect cause may have been loose rock?
What are the root causes of this loss and similar recent incidents referenced?
Motivation fuelled by social pressure?
Risk normalizing, again by social pressure and negative feedback i.e.. lots of people are doing it without negative consequence?
The randomness of the objective hazards of being on or beneath a big piece of steep terrain that killed George Manson, Guy Edwards and recently Marc LeClerc?
I choose to see climbing as a game of risk management.
We can choose to be reckless or take calculated risks with the same consequences if we get it wrong.
Thankfully there's no law against sticking our necks out and some of the greatest rewards and accomplishments are are a result.
I have recreated, worked and lived at heights since I was fifteen and survived moments of immense stupidity and recklessness, taken constant calculated risks and ascribe wholeheartedly to Tom's reference to the risk management and causation models derived from aviation.
At the age of sixty and still working and recreating at heights, I contend with the increasing risk of the statistical probability of a wreck, the same risk that I contend, killed my good friend Scott Cosgrove.
I hope this horrible loss gives everyone in our community cause to reflect on why we take the risks we do, the consequences of getting it wrong, the price we're willing to pay and the efforts we're prepared to make to mitigate preventable loss.
One of the most powerful pieces of advice I ever heard was from a Ranger from Mt. Rainer at the IKAR conference at Lake Tahoe.
"Seek out and destroy risk normalizing".
Thanks for letting me share.
PB
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Wen
Trad climber
Bend, OR
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I'm sorry for their families, their friends, our community at large, but most of all for their kids. Having young kids myself, this kind of stuff stops me in my tracks and makes me rethink the concept of risk. I'll stay out of the speed ascent discussion, but I can't help but feel heart broken for the wives and kids. May you know you are in the thoughts of so many, today and in the coming days.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Heartbreaking loss....they sound like two exceptional people who were well loved and will be deeply missed.
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ExfifteenExfifteen
climber
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Freeblast should have been a triviality for this party.
Yup... And therein lies the problem.
I suck at climbing. Sometimes I feel bad-ass. But I can't recall how many times I've been humbled... Too many have come and gone, and it's never gonna change. RIP
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WilliamSkea
Big Wall climber
Brisbane, Australia
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Hey,
Me my partner Alastair were bivying that morning on the far-left side of mamoth terrace after aiding the first 10 pitches of Magic Mushroom the day before. We were preparing to lead above the far left of the terrace at the time of the incident.
We definitely didnt see anything fall from the party on the shield, and we defintely didnt drop anything ourselves. If we had, it wouldnt have gone down freeblast.
At the time of the incident we heard shouting from freeblast followed by bangs of something hitting the ground. We didnt see anything, but there was a party of two above the team that did. They helped the third member get up to mammoth by climbing as a train of three. They didnt tell us what happened besides saying ‘simulclimbing with no gear’. It was tragic, and everyone was in a degree of shock. One member was called Jared but we cant remember who everyone was. Hopefully they can clarify what happened.
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Trump
climber
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Has climbing gotten riskier? Are climbers taking more risks? That’s what the data shows?
How does the number of climber fatalities per climber-hour compare, over time? I’d be interested in seeing that data and how it compares to our anecdotal understandings.
The risk that most climbers seem most tuned into is the risk of spending their life on the couch. Nicely done, in that regard.
It wouldn’t surprise me to learn that many of our heroes did visualize what might go wrong, and did have private methods and tools to prevent something from going wrong, before something went wrong and they died. But we still take the risk of imagining them as our heroes, regardless.
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sailfurther
Sport climber
berkeley
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Hi,
Jason is my brother-in-law. Tim and Jason were truly amazing human beings. We will miss them so much.
I would like to let the climbing community know that NPS is taking witness statements.
They can be emailed to Jesse McGahey and Brandon Latham.
jesse_mcgahey@nps.gov
brandon_latham@nps.gov
Thank you.
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NBB
Social climber
Boulder
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These guys were not doing anything I would call “speed climbing”.
Amazingly fit, experienced, very familiar with the route - out for a favorite jog, as Jason would put it - they even brought along a friend on this day.
Tim was so far from the risk taking type you guys are describing here - so very far.
Jason was a friend here in Boulder. I’m stunned. I’m really going to miss him. Like Kevin, and a few others, I was fortunate enough to have shared a few days on El Cap with Tim and Jason.
From what I can piece together so far, this really doesn’t sound to me like an accident unique to short fixing or any other “speed” tactic. It could well have happened to anyone. That last stretch is over 70m, I know it well, almost everyone simuls it.
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WBraun
climber
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The elite do elite stuff and reap high praise and that's why they're called elite.
When stuff goes wrong they can suffer elite failure.
That's the name of the game and it's not going away ......
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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WBraun
climber
Jun 3, 2018 - 04:48pm PT
The elite do elite stuff and reap high praise and that's why they're called elite.
When stuff goes wrong they can suffer elite failure.
That's the name of the game and it's not going away ......
Condolences to the family and friends of the fallen climbers.
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JOEY.F
Gym climber
It's not rocket surgery
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Been thinking about these guys all day. The photo up thread shows fit, happy, and psyched.
My best to their families &friends.
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hobo_dan
Social climber
Minnesota
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Just kind of empty right now
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jstan
climber
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The elite do elite stuff and reap high praise and that's why they're called elite.
When stuff goes wrong they can suffer elite failure.
That's the name of the game and it's not going away ......
When Honnold's name first began to crop up on ST, I posted several times that his risk/benefit decisions were none of my business, It is his business and I am not going to praise or criticize. Were I to do so I would potentially bear culpability. Several times I did state my opinion that for him climbing was waste of his talent. I still feel this to be true.
It is not right for bystanders to praise as heroes those taking risks. Doing so makes one culpable.
Decades ago that is the way we climbers handled the situation. Read Werner's post again. Someone else is making the trade.
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Odyssues
Trad climber
California
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Werner sums it all up as usual.
Bluey out~~~
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crøtch
climber
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Condolences to family and friends of these two dads.
There, but for the grace of luck, go I.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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I've kept silent since learning about this accident, partly because I was hoping to find out what really happened, but even more because of profound sorrow thinking about the wives and children the climbers left behind. Parents and friends, too, have my deep sympathy, but dependents have the greatest call.
I, too, have simulclimbed with minimal pro on terrain more difficult than those pitches on Freeblast, so I find myself disqualified from criticizing others for doing the same. The monumental increase in crowds on big walls comes to mind, but I just don't feel like thinking about that now. Thinking about the impact of this tragedy overwhelms any other thoughts.
Again, I just feel the deepest sympathy for all who miss those who fell.
John
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Franco909
Trad climber
SFO
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Rgold
I think speed climbing is getting a bit like my view of wingsuit flying, in which expertise seems to be of little use in preserving life. It might actually correspond to increased risk, as one gets to a point where risks considered acceptable by experts carry with them probabilities which, unlike a lot of climbing, are not small.
I have little doubt about it. While these guys have skill, strength and experience I will never have it does mean it makes them safer if they are pushing the limits particularly time limits.
One of the good things about rockclimbing I see is it generally get safer (or at least doesn't get less safe) as you increase in ability and corresponding difficulty.
I regularly contrast this with safe mountain biking where the better you get the faster and bigger you go... With generally a corresponding increase in injury severity.
But everybody in climbing is free to choose their own taste for risk. Speed climbing and soling are obviously of increased risk. But not many of us are in a good position to even accurately assess the risks of these highly skilled climbers.
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L
climber
Just livin' the dream
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My heart goes out to the families and friends of Tim and Jason.
Such a tragedy can leave one with little else to say.
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kief
Trad climber
east side
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I never met Tim or Jason but I reveled in the stoke of their trip reports and the audacity of their exploits on El Cap. When I read of this tragedy yesterday I recalled the words of the Scottish novelist John Buchan in memory of a close friend who was killed in action during the First World War:
"He will stand to those of us who are left as an incarnation of the spirit of the land he loved."
Change "land" to "rock" and it sure rings true for these guys.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Just getting back from a weekend away in the mountains, climbing.
Debbie told me she had heard this news, very sad.
My thoughts are with their families and friends as they deal with this immense tragedy.
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