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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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May 15, 2018 - 07:16pm PT
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Sure love me a good objective unemotional discussion.
Since I skipped third grade now I know what it musta been like -
like second grade but with two syllable vitriol.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 15, 2018 - 11:45pm PT
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I think we will come to better understand the sine wave of reality respects no man's opinion.
There's probably more truth to that then my idealism would like to admit.
Sigh.
So, I guess that we all should just buckle down and get to paying more taxes, so that we can keep the MIC afloat. I can think of better uses for our money. But, then, what do "we the people" have to say about it?
Now you've just got me all depressed, DMT. Thanks a lot.
;-)
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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May 16, 2018 - 01:14am PT
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madbolter1,
I admire your persistence in trying to maintain a discussion based on fact and rational arguments, but the title of this thread reflects disinterest in convincing those with whom they disagree. I've come to the reluctant conclusion that we waste our time responding to that sort of hyperbole. Facts and logic have little effect in such an environment.
Quite simply, titles like that of this thread don't invite consensus. They invite war. Maybe we need to call out that sort of rhetoric before we attempt to present arguments on the merits.
You deserve credit for eliciting some intelligent responses, but it took an enormous amount of effort to get a bit of wheat from a mountain of chaff. Nonetheless, thank you for trying.
John
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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May 16, 2018 - 06:17am PT
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+1,000, John. Yep. Yep.
BAd
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 16, 2018 - 08:36am PT
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Thank you, John.
It does seem that many people who start out with hard lines and inflammatory language are actually willing to engage in discussion. In general, people on this thread have been willing to dialog, which has been quite refreshing to me and worth my time.
I continue to hope that we're not nearly as divided in this country as rhetoric makes it initially seem.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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May 18, 2018 - 09:36am PT
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$40 Million of Russian money funneled through the NRA for 2016 election??
The NRA is a sponsor of terror
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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May 18, 2018 - 09:38am PT
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Lots of thoughts and prayers being offered. unfortunately that has proven highly ineffective
Given an American religiopolitical reality, that's only proof that more guns, thoughts and prayers are needed... Is that true? Is that insensitive?
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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May 18, 2018 - 09:39am PT
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Go back to sleep fry, you're hallucinating.
The current shooting (again) shows the need to protect our children anyway possible.
Courtrooms are safe because guns are not allowed there. This is done by arming the individuals that would protect against those wishing to harm defendants or judges.
We need to show our children the same care.
It's difficult for the left to recognize that this is what it has come to but, it is the reality.
Our schools need armed gaurds.
edit:
Our schools need trained armed gaurds that will not run and hide.
Veterans can do this.
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Bushman
climber
The state of quantum flux
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Topic Author's Reply - May 18, 2018 - 09:59am PT
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This is not a world I would chose to bring children into. The idea of my kid being slaughtered like a lamb by gun toting morons is unbearable. I am glad that both of my adopted children are grown and were not affected by this latest tragic trend of violence towards children.
With only one grandchild left in public school I worry for his safety. I wish my daughter would homeschool him but she is headstrong and a career woman, and would not listen to me anyway.
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dirtbag
climber
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May 18, 2018 - 10:27am PT
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The NRA accepted money from the Russians. Yet, the god, guns, and guts crowd continues to back them anyway.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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May 18, 2018 - 12:11pm PT
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Yet again, everyone wants to solve the problem without paying. The left wants to make illegal use of firearms more illegal. the right wants to get free guard service from teachers.
As pud points out, we haven't had the same carnage in courtrooms that we have in schools because we decided to protect courtrooms with metal detectors and armed bailiffs. This came about as a direct result of the George Jackson fiasco in the 1970's. Judges and lawyers didn't argue for gun control. They protected themselves.
Don't our children deserve to learn in an environment at least as safe as that we provide judges and lawyers? Sorry, but that costs money.
It would probably help if the media didn't make each school shooting more sensational than the last, but "If it bleeds, it leads" seems unlikely to disappear any time soon. In the meantime, we need to protect our schools the way we protect our courts. If I have to pay some more in taxes to achieve that, so be it.
John
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Cragar
climber
MSLA - MT
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May 18, 2018 - 01:21pm PT
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Send your kids to schools where whitey don't exist and your kids will be fine.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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May 18, 2018 - 01:38pm PT
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As far as gun control goes at the every least we should:
Have a federal law for universal background checks (no more private or gun show sales without a background check in any state).
Have a federal red flag law (in every state).
Make it a federal crime to provide a gun to someone who shouldn't have one, with varying degrees of punishment (e.g. a parent who doesn't lock up their guns and their kid kills someone doesn't get the same punishment as someone who knowingly provides a gun to someone who can't pass a background check).
And just as important as gun control IMO is improving the mental health aspect. I'd rather pay for more counselors to talk to all kids regularly and get them help than pay for armed guards. We should track people who may be violent and make sure that shows up on background checks, it's a fine line to walk to not infringe on someone's rights, but as mentioned red flags laws are good for this, I'd rather temporarily take away someone's right to buy legally possess firearms, than see kids die.
Perform national education and outreach on all of the above.
The thing that drives me crazy is the NRA won't allow any new gun control. At least now the CDC can do research on the problem (which they fought). I'm a gun owner and believe in the right to own many types of guns, but I'm okay with background checks waiting periods, mandatory training for certain types of guns, restrictions on where you can legally possess certain types of guns, etc. But we haven't really done anything to try to improve the situation, and not only is the NRA preventing it, they are turning this into another part of the culture wars, where so many on the right think the left wants to take away all guns or repeal the second amendment, spoiler alert that's not happening. Most people just want reasonable gun control and to at least try to do something.
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10b4me
Social climber
Lida Junction
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May 18, 2018 - 01:39pm PT
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Send your kids to schools where whitey don't exist and your kids will be fine. interesting that I don't hear of
Native Americans, Blacks, or, illegal immigrants committing mass school shootings, hmm.
edit: I see that leazarian is using trump's talking point. if you don't like the message, shoot the messenger.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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May 18, 2018 - 01:44pm PT
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I saw Dave Chappelle live recently and he did a great bit on school shootings. And how he wasn't too worried about his kids because the mass shooters tend to be overwhelmingly white, or something like that.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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May 18, 2018 - 01:54pm PT
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A school is not a Court House surrounded with police
Any gunman can shoot the armed guard first and then go on to shoot students after the coast is clear
The whole idea of a gunman is that they shoot people by surprise
What happens when the armed guard shoots a student by accident, or because he's mad, or he has his gun taken from him by a student
So this idea of arming the school is a bad one
AND, the students don't want Armed Guards or teachers with guns at their school
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Roots
Mountain climber
Redmond, Oregon
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May 18, 2018 - 01:59pm PT
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The suspect had a shotgun and a .38-caliber revolver
An "assault" weapons ban would not have changed this scenario...
Obama and Biden encouraged Americans to own shotguns.
Seems to me that everyone is looking in the wrong direction.....
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monolith
climber
state of being
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May 18, 2018 - 02:03pm PT
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Fine, let the shooters use shotguns and revolvers. The cops would rather deal with them than be up against the high capacity, rapid fire, assault weapons.
I wonder what the death and injury toll would have been had he used an assault weapon?
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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May 18, 2018 - 02:12pm PT
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edit: I see that leazarian is using trump's talking point. if you don't like the message, shoot the messenger.
I'm sorry, but I don't follow. Which messenger did I shoot?
And Craig, doesn't your argument imply that all the courthouse security I've lived with for decades is useless, because someone could just blast their way through?
My position comes from reality. In the United States, gun control has not reduced gun violence (although I note that gun violence has been trending lower over time for decades). Sure, I hate the idea of going through a metal detector to go to school, but if you want to reduce these sorts of incidents, I see no better option.
I also note that after Oklahoma City, every federal building suddenly became harder to enter, and harder to park near. The idea that we can make our schools safer merely by passing laws, rather than taking action that actively protects them, strikes me as both unrealistic and dishonest.
John
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