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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Dec 20, 2017 - 12:03pm PT
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I can't agree with the idea that there are no existing wilderness areas compatible with XC biking
I can. There are no existing wilderness areas where cross-country biking should be allowed. Have you seen what dirt bikers do to the desert? A mountain bike is just a low powered dirt bike.
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Cragar
climber
MSLA - MT
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Dec 20, 2017 - 12:19pm PT
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Gary, are you cool with aggressively cleaning cliffs(using crowbars, wire brushes and removing vegetation that might be threatened and endangered(because cliff-life can be fragile and really frikkin rare) or be the resource of other cliff-life)) so that folks can climb it? Is cool with you to remove or disturb nesting birds such as peregrines and others so that folks can climb it?
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Dec 20, 2017 - 12:28pm PT
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A "a low powered dirt bike" ? Hardly.
Everyone has their fair share of idiots. Horses on wet trails, lazy people cutting switchbacks, the list goes on and on.
There nothing inherently bad about responsible MTB riding. Most of the people I know and ride with, including some rangers, are staunch environmentalists.
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kunlun_shan
Mountain climber
SF, CA
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Dec 20, 2017 - 01:28pm PT
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While waiting for a tech support call, thought I'd include a link to a post nah000 made awhile back, about a cool 775 mile traverse back in 1997 by mountain bike and packraft:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2809614&msg=2819015#msg2819015
Canada to Lake Clark (1996): Roman Dial, Carl Tobin, and Paul Adkins by mountain bike and packraft: first full length traverse. 775 miles (1,247 km) in 42 days.
[4]"A Wild Ride," National Geographic Magazine (1997), Vol. 191. Pages 118-131
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Dec 20, 2017 - 01:44pm PT
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I can. There are no existing wilderness areas where cross-country biking should be allowed. Have you seen what dirt bikers do to the desert? A mountain bike is just a low powered dirt bike.
Let me clarify a little Gary.
XC means riding up and down trails on a relatively light bike. Not downhillers shredding madly while wearing body armor on 45lb bikes. And not literally off trail across country.
And even top racers can barely generate 0.5hp for any length of time. That's a whole lot less than even a small dirt bike. There is no comparison at all between the two, and this is exactly the sort of thing that ticks off the mountain bikers and makes them willing to work with the GOP.
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Dec 20, 2017 - 01:51pm PT
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Gary, are you cool with aggressively cleaning cliffs(using crowbars, wire brushes and removing vegetation that might be threatened and endangered(because cliff-life can be fragile and really frikkin rare) or be the resource of other cliff-life)) so that folks can climb it? Is cool with you to remove or disturb nesting birds such as peregrines and others so that folks can climb it?
No.
I have no problems with folks riding mountain bikes out on the trails. After all, it was only once that I was almost run down. But they don't belong in wilderness areas.
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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Dec 20, 2017 - 03:00pm PT
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Biking should be on a trail by trail, park by park basis for specific circumstance and impact however, broad access in BLM, National Forest, State Parks and established roads in Wilderness areas should be allowed.
The current urban, socioeconomic condition of reduced home ownership,increased density and less sprawl should have us encouraging the pent-up weekend warrior to take advantage of their tax dollars and get out there and tear sh!t up.
Foot paths in Wilderness areas should be off limits.
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Dec 20, 2017 - 03:05pm PT
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encouraging the pent-up weekend warrior to take advantage of their tax dollars and get out there and tear sh!t up.
The ATVers already to a great job of tearing sh!t up. Do we need more?
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Dec 20, 2017 - 03:19pm PT
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The ATVers already to a great job of tearing sh!t up. Do we need more? I believe that we are talking about a completely different group of people with a very different mindset about the outdoors and impact. That's really a false comparison. Maybe you could say that dedicated DH'ers bear some similarity to ATV'ers, but I think most XC riders would be insulted by the comparison.
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Dec 20, 2017 - 03:22pm PT
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Not once did I ever see a mountain biker ever slow down when passing pedestrians on the trail, nor did they even move off the narrow trail to minimize the risk of collision with pedestrians.
I hear you. I've mountain biked since 1984, but have never been a downhiller.
I used to work with a guy who was a downhiller. He was overweight, and never did any climbing. He got shuttled to the top, and blasted down the trail(s).
My take is that alot of the downhillers are not going to venture into wilderness areas.
Off topic, but anything that McClintock is for I usually oppose.
Guy is nothing but a rightwing carpetbagger who hopefully will get voted out next year.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Dec 22, 2017 - 11:04am PT
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It’s complicated. When the 1964 Wilderness Act was signed, it stipulated that "there shall be no temporary road, no use of motor vehicles, motorized equipment or motorboats, no landing of aircraft, no other form of mechanical transport..." At the time, mountain biking as we know it didn’t exist and mechanical transport was defined to mean a cart, sled, or any other vehicle "powered by a non-living power source.” As the sport began to emerge, the Forest Service updated its rules, with the most influential change coming in 1984, when the agency banned the "possessing or using a hang glider or bicycle.” Note, however, that wheelbarrows did exist in 1964.
So, when you see the argument that the Wilderness Act did not mention mountain bikes, it is because mountain bikes did not exist, not because it was not the intent of the writers to include them.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Dec 22, 2017 - 11:05am PT
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.And Why You Might Not Want To
Not everyone has such a favorable view of the legislation. There are fears that the bill could create a rift between cyclists and the environmental movement with the inadvertent effect of empowering pro-extraction interests. Outside’s Grayson Schaffer raised this concern last April when 275,000 acres among the Boulder and White Cloud Mountains were signed into federal wilderness:
Most dangerous of all is that the fragile coalition of recreation interests that’s critical to wilderness advocacy will have to spend time and political capital shoring up its own ranks instead of actually fighting for conservation. If hikers and bikers are at each other’s throats, the only interest group that will benefit is the one that would prefer extraction and development.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Dec 22, 2017 - 11:20am PT
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A number of people have expressed a preference for a "case-by-case" basis of determination.
this bill does not actually do that, as it specifically states:
(3) REQUIREMENT.—In making a determination pursuant to this section, a local official shall seek to accommodate all forms of nonmotorized transportation, to the maximum extent practicable.
In my mind, this REQUIREMENT would be used in any court case against an agency that made a determination against access, pretty much for any reason.
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Roughster
Sport climber
Vacaville, CA
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Dec 22, 2017 - 11:23am PT
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I just recently completed the JMT (just to prove I can hike too ;) and have always mountain bike'd. I fully support a case by case assessment by the land manager. I wouldn't want to see MTBs on the JMT, but some stretches of the PCT I have hiked were just begging for mountain bikes!
Blanket policies misinterpreted to a ridiculous standard, mechanical doesn't mean human powered IMO, are not a good policy. Let's use our brains peoples!
$0.02
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thirsty
climber
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Dec 22, 2017 - 04:02pm PT
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A couple of people up thread said they had seen a lot of collisions between mountain bikers and hikers. Are those claims valid? My personal experience is that I can stop my bike in less distance than I can stop myself when running downhill and that I have never once felt like I might inadvertently crash into a hiker on a trail. My most common negative interactions are when I come up behind a hiker and just slow to their speed, staying back a few feet, waiting for the trail to open up wide enough to allow me to pass. Sometimes they suddenly realize I am behind them, freak out and jump off the trail like I am going to run them down if they don't. It doesn't make any sense. Even at high speeds, a MB has low momentum and excellent brakes (its not a heavy off road motorcycle).
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Risk
Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
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Dec 22, 2017 - 04:47pm PT
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Most trails in the Sierra high country were built with stock support for use by stock users. Nearly all were first constructed before backpacking was even a fad - pre 1960's. If stock users didn't need the trails, then footpaths would do; like the Mist Trail or the new Cathedral Peak access path. Bikes using old roads might be marginally tolerable- like the Hetchy to Eleanor road, the White Wolf to Aspen Valley road, Old Inspiration Point or Eleven Mile road. If I were up the PCT/JMT near Donahue and there were rainbow colored, gear-festooned cyclists basting there way up or down on $10,000 bikes, I'd feel like getting out the tire knife and mini bolt cutters for a 3am visit to their camp. 90%+ of trails are totally incompatible to bikes. McClintock has zero interest in Wilderness or access. This is a blatant wedge meant to divide recreation users.
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Lituya
Mountain climber
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Dec 22, 2017 - 04:59pm PT
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There seems to be an assumption here that environmental orgs and hikers are on the same page. Not necessarily true. Wedge issues? Certain environmental groups have done a pretty good job pissing off hikers (and climbers) up here in WA State. ALPS, NCCC, and The Audubon Society among others have done a fine job alienating hikers by suing to restrict needed trail maintenance and trailhead access. It's gotten so bad that there is now very little support among the hiking community for a proposal to expand North Cascades National Park.
As for bicycles in designated wilderness, I'd probably want them limited to current and former road grades.
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Risk
Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
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Dec 22, 2017 - 05:39pm PT
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Surely, many environmental orgs and preservation purists want to restrict or keep out all users. "Rope it off!" True of many land managers, too ("natural resources management is 90% people management"). Those huge 2-ton rocks along roads that restrict parking, roadside curbing under disguise as "stormwater conveyance" that confine cars only to the traveled way, steep ditches off of the road, small parking lots, closed campgrounds for 8 months a year, and boardwalks. These all aim to restrict human use indirectly.
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Dec 22, 2017 - 05:59pm PT
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Actually there are lots of good reasons to keep bikes out of Wilderness. Among them are the effect bikes have on the perception of wilderness (the feeling that one is in wild country). This is huge.
It's clear that mountain bikers have plenty of places to ride - why can't some small amount of country be reserved for non-mechanized travel? Mountain bikers in Wilderness would have the same affect on hikers that motorcycles would have on mountain bikers if motorcycles were allowed to use mountain bike trails. It's a massive ruining of the experience.
A second reason is history (this is why horses are and always have been in Wilderness).
But I'm out of this conversation after this comment. Reply or not, I'm not reading it. I know that seems like a weird and harsh comment, so here's the explanation:
I have very, very strong feelings on this issue. I have a really hard time seeing the other side of the argument ("being reasonable"). This is an issue over which I can become extremely angry. For example, I could easily see me getting physical with mountain bikers invading Wilderness.
I can recognize when I can't play nice. I've tried to state my views politely in this post. But I doubt I could continue to engage on this issue and stay polite.
So, Merry Christmas everyone and on the the next thread (for me that is).
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Dec 22, 2017 - 06:37pm PT
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I just recently completed the JMT (just to prove I can hike too ;) and have always mountain bike'd. I fully support a case by case assessment by the land manager. I wouldn't want to see MTBs on the JMT, but some stretches of the PCT I have hiked were just begging for mountain bikes!
Blanket policies misinterpreted to a ridiculous standard, mechanical doesn't mean human powered IMO, are not a good policy. Let's use our brains peoples!
So I take it that you oppose the current bill that would REQUIRE access, and not look at things on a case-by-case basis?
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