Would you switch to autolock belay device for your partner?

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rgold

Trad climber

Poughkeepsie, NY

Dec 10, 2017 - 09:24pm PT

Getting back on track, the Click Up is what Mei chose (although one "advantage" she cited, no moving parts, isn't true).

UKC recently (May 2017) did a review of assisted-braking devices and the Click Up came out on top, beating the Gri-Gris among others. https://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/review.php?id=9402.

If your ropes are thinnish (8--10 mm), the Alpine Up has the same good handling characteristics as the Click Up and can be used for rappelling (with auto-stop feature) and guide-mode belays. It is about the size and weight of a Gri Gri, so neither super light (175g vs. 170g for Gri Gri 2 vs. 200g for Gri Gri +) nor super compact.

Mei

Trad climber

mxi2000.net

Topic Author's Reply - Dec 10, 2017 - 09:31pm PT

I was out climbing in the warm Californian sun. My first outing with a Click-Up and I'm completely sold. The free theatrical motion with both hands when paying out rope fast and generously reminds me of my good ol' ATC and made me giddy. No twist in rope after a full 70m rope belay and lower. Catching falls and lowering are easy peasy, ergonomical, and simply enjoyable. My partner might get climber's high after redpointing 5.12d, but if I had been asked, I'd have attributed that success to the flawless belay the Click-Up offered. And if Belayer's High is a thing, I think I got a taste of it.

While researching Click-Up, I got to read more about Alpine-Up and am now super intrigued by this versatile tool -- it's everything I wanted in one without some shorting comings of other similar products (such as Mega Jul). Now I wish I could get my hands on one to try it out in real life. (P.S. Really, there is no moving part on a Click Up.) (P.P.S. Really? There is a moving part on Click Up?)

Wow, this thread certainly has run away on its own. Did a quick scan of posts I missed, and I must admit many posts are lost on me. Not clear what points were being made and not sure why some people sounded pissed. Oh well, I just know that to my original question, some people already made the switch, some are considering, and some will never do (and sounded like they might even want to go back to their hip belays).

One point caught my eye and gave me an eureka moment. While previously I wasn't sure what made me switch (from ATC to an auto block device) originally, it just dawned on me that it was the climbing environment that changed and I simply adapted! For sure, more than a decade ago, the climbers I climbed with (including my mentors) did not go on a climb if they thought they might not get the climb clean. Falls were infrequent, unexpected, and usually surprising. Many climbers I climb with today (most younger than me) would jump on climbs we all knew were above their ability, and yet didn't think it would be a big deal if they fell. The new wave climbers have adopted falling as part of the fast track to getting to higher grades. These days, the mindset is if you are not falling, you are not pushing yourself. I'm pretty sure by percentage, climbers who weigh ropes when climbing are way more than in the old days.

Ah ha! Now I can see if someone who's been climbing for decades and still climb with old school climbers, an ATC is really all you need. Going back to hip belay? Yeah, why not?

rgold

Trad climber

Poughkeepsie, NY

Dec 10, 2017 - 09:57pm PT

Mei, it has a moving part. Below are two pictures and an explanation from http://www.mountaineeringmethodology.com/belay-device-click-up/.

The lever is the secret to the superior handling of the Click-Up. It keeps the carabiner in the semi-circular bottom well while slack is taken in or out, giving a very free-running feel. When the rope experiences higher tension, it and the carabiner depress the lever and then the carabiner rides up to the braking position.

By the way, the device will sometimes lock up when it shouldn't, perhaps because of an inadvertant downward pull on the brake hand. To unlock it, place the heels of both hands at the bottom of the device and shove it upwards (away from the harness). Your brake hand keeps its grip on the brake strand while doing this. A few practice shoves and you can do this instantaneously. Remember if you give the gadget to someone else to belay with to show them this release tactic!

If you get an Alpine Up, the same quick shoving tactic breaks it loose at the base of a rappel.

Speaking of rappels and the Alpine Up, I find it to be ok with 8.5mm ropes, but I wonder if it won't be too grabby with thicker strands. You can, of course, always thread it in non-locking mode, but then you lose the auto-stop effect.

The Click-Up feature means you can do something (no doubt not recommended by the manufacturer) that no other device does: you can lock it and it stays in locked position. With a quick catastrophe knot in the brake strand to be 100% safe, you can then let go of the belay in order to do something demanded by the moment: untangle a wayward snag, tie something onto a tag line for the leader, or (ahem) take a photo.

Mei

Trad climber

mxi2000.net

Topic Author's Reply - Dec 10, 2017 - 10:13pm PT

Ahhh... but if I can’t see it and can’t touch it, guess I can’t mess with it or mess up because of it.

rgold

Trad climber

Poughkeepsie, NY

Dec 10, 2017 - 10:21pm PT

No, you can't mess up because of it, and if it fails (I've used mine for several years without any sign of it wearing out), it would probably make the handling much worse but will not result in a loss of braking, although at the first opportunity you'd probably want to rethread it in non-locking mode.

Chief

climber

The NW edge of The Hudson Bay

Dec 10, 2017 - 10:40pm PT

Depends on who the requesting partner is and the circumstances.

Properly operated autolocking systems engineer out a lot of the risk of being dropped so I default to them when I'm cragging and prefer to be belayed by one where it's a reasonable expectation.

The Reverso has is my default device in the alpine and longer rock routes where weight is a concern.
My partners are generally in the same mode.
Maybe there's a better device?

If someone I respected and cared about asked me to switch from my Reverso to a GriGri, it wouldn't seem like much of a concession.

I'm glad to see the discussion on rope diameter considerations.
Skinny ropes in the wrong devices can be disastrous.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Dec 11, 2017 - 12:21am PT

Properly operated autolocking systems engineer out a lot of the risk of being dropped...

Oh, I agree, but the incredible number of grigri drops puts a heavy burden on the qualifier "properly" and one can only guess what percentage of the total demographic likely operates them "properly" at a given time and what percentage is just an accident that hasn't happened yet. And that's the problem with the combination of grigris and a demographic this size - the likelihood of ever crossing even a 90% threshold of proper use is highly unlikely. And to compound that, the device can mask incompetence for an extended period time until it doesn't.

Chief

climber

The NW edge of The Hudson Bay

Dec 11, 2017 - 12:34am PT

The entire enterprise is fraught with peril and nobody gets out alive.

pschwa

Social climber

The 9th Circle

Dec 11, 2017 - 07:55am PT

Not to contribute further to the somewhat OT directions this thread took some 40 posts back, but...

All of this talk of hip belays and belay practice might sound to a lot of younger climbers like a lot of hogwash, but there is video evidence available online! (And isn’t that the ultimate determinant of truth, of late?)

Here’s a video transfer of some 16mm film footage of belay practice and testing by the Mountaineering Section of the Potomac Appalachian Trail Club from 60-70 years ago. Compare this to the test given at most gyms, and it is hard to argue that there is much less emphasis given to belaying technique and proficiency (at least in some circles) than there once was. As for the trade-offs that can come with the replacement of technique with technology, that’s clearly not something limited to the world of climbing.

[Click to View YouTube Video]

drljefe

climber

El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson

Dec 11, 2017 - 08:03am PT

The song at the end of that video is classic.

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Dec 11, 2017 - 08:11am PT

Neat video. Why is that voices on old videos always sound old? As I said earlier, I held a 100 ft. leader fall with a hip belay bitd with no harm to either one of us and the leader was wearing a swami...the marvels of a dynamic rope!
No, I don’t belay the leader that way anymore and I’m not still wearing a swami. I do, however, still occasionally use a hip belay for the second on moderate terrain that the second is moving quickly on.

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber

Livermore, CA

Dec 11, 2017 - 08:51am PT

voices on the film? maybe when you get older you have a sense that preserving some of the lessons you learned could be helpful, and maybe even important, for those that are starting out. it seems that when you are young you are more engaged in doing...

and while this particular video doesn't have a bolt, and the object taking the whippers is particularly wooden, and the belayer is a woman, I'm certain it never went viral on the internet...

the idea of "dynamic" belaying has been around a long time and adapted to the particulars of the belay techniques. modern technologies have certainly increased the safety margins quite a lot.

Gary

Social climber

Desolation Basin, Calif.

Dec 11, 2017 - 09:34am PT

The old bucket drop belay test of the RCS and SCMA was a great wake up call to novices that belaying was serious business for both ends of the rope. It definitely taught the importance of being in line with the anchor and climber!

blahblah

Gym climber

Boulder

Dec 11, 2017 - 09:45am PT

I fully agree that GriGris are safer than ATCs...FOR THOSE EXPERIENCED IN THEIR USE.

Problem is...the learning curve is not.

I am quite experienced using the GriGri and was a big fan...until I was dropped with one last summer.

Last bolt of an overhanging sport climb...experienced belayer and friend of 40 years (but not that experienced with GriGri).

I nearly decked. Neither of us knows exactly what happened but I bailed on the GriGri right there.

I still think it’s fine for belayers very experienced in it’s use...but there are better devices:

The Click-Up. Lighter, safer, far easier to master. No dangerous learning curve.

There’s at least one more but currently this is the bomb. My climbing friends agree.

Psyched to check out the Revo when it arrives.

Was the belayer using the method recommended by Petzl (what is often referred to as the "new" technique, although it's been around for years now)? https://www.petzl.com/US/en/Sport/video/How-to-belay-the-leader-with-a-GRIGRI---Belaying-techniques

I'm curious whether any Grigri drops have occurred by someone even purporting to use the "new" technique, as opposed to ad hoc methods that seem to involve grabbing the entire device (including the cam) in hand. So far, I don't think I've heard of a drop by someone even purporting to use the "new" technique, but perhaps understandably given the incredibly gross negligence involved in dropping someone with a Grigri or anything else, the culprits don't often give many details.

JLP

Social climber

The internet

Dec 11, 2017 - 10:17am PT

Everyone thought the rev A of the Cinch was the bomb, until it wasn't and a bunch of people wound up in the hospital due to an unforeseen design defect. Love the concept of some of these new devices, but I'm not interested in participating in their testing.

There's something to be said about reduced risk of unknowns of something that's been used by millions for a few decades.

For all the perceived flaws of the GriGri, it is still likely by far the most thoroughly tested and proven piece of any climbing gear ever. If you read and follow that manual, take the time to learn it, your chances of a failure are extremely low.

CA Dreamin'

climber

San Jose

Dec 11, 2017 - 10:50am PT

To answer the question directly, I would not have a problem switching to an auto lock belay device for my partner if they requested it. After climbing for close to 18 years, I'm confident and comfortable belaying with any type of device, and to me, it's important that my partner has the utmost confidence and clear mind while leading. If that means I belay with an auto lock, then that's ok.

However, I have two quick stories that illustrate Donini's point that the competence of the belayer, regardless of the device, is paramount:

Anecdote 1 - I was at a plywood session, where a top roped climber was being belayed with a GRIGRI. Upon reaching the top, the experienced belayer cranked back on the handle, without their brake hand on the rope, and the climber plummeted to the concrete slab, bruising their heels.
Anecdote 2 - I was walking along the base of the Warm Up Wall in ORG, when a climber fell from the top of Crowd Pleaser. He stopped about five feet from the ground. He was belayed with a tube style belay device.

It could have been much worse for both climbers, and they were fortunate.

Scenarios where a health crisis (Exhibit A: Anker, Conrad), rock fall, or other unforeseen circumstance adversely affects a belayer's cognitive and physical functions are compelling arguments for an auto lock device. Fortunately, I have not found myself in one of those situations. And while carrying two devices is antithetical to the minimalist approach that I was taught, I would not have a problem making the switch, if my partner requested it.