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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Aug 11, 2017 - 11:45am PT
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You sure do like to run that mouth
OP called him out in the thread title. I think it's relevant that he makes his point regardless of if you agree with it. Whose running their mouth?
I climb a lot in San Diego and appreciate what Kevin has done down here.
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cat t.
climber
california
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Aug 11, 2017 - 11:54am PT
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None of us are reliable witnesses, and we are all afflicted by confirmation bias. If one expects to see new male climbers as clumsy apes or naturally powerful, or female climbers as terribly frightened or naturally well-balanced, then it is all too easy to look back in memory and find that only the people that fit the prior expectation come to mind...
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Aug 11, 2017 - 01:00pm PT
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To comment on this accomplishment at least requires being able to do the route on TR, with no more than 10 hangs... ok.. maybe 20...
I'm out.
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Aug 11, 2017 - 01:15pm PT
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None of us are reliable witnesses, and we are all afflicted by confirmation bias. If one expects to see new male climbers as clumsy apes or naturally powerful, or female climbers as terribly frightened or naturally well-balanced, then it is all too easy to look back in memory and find that only the people that fit the prior expectation come to mind...
I disagree, I'm quite infallible.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Aug 11, 2017 - 01:33pm PT
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Sometimes the bickering that rambles on this thread is like two bald guys arguing over a comb.
Hazel done good. She's a crusher.
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DanaB
climber
CT
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Aug 11, 2017 - 01:37pm PT
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Kevin, how did the problem with your ankle turn out?
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anita514
Gym climber
Great White North
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Aug 11, 2017 - 01:42pm PT
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What did the bald man say when he got a comb for Christmas?
"Thanks, I'll never part with it."
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Aug 11, 2017 - 03:11pm PT
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.. you debate like angry women ..
Well, thanks. It's something to aspire to anyway.
Theres enough BS in everyday life, climbing has always been an escape from that.
If you need to escape from the way the world is changing, go escape. What are you skeeered or something? How manly of you :-)
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Aug 11, 2017 - 03:49pm PT
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Kevin...you need to find a girldriend with green camalot hands. If you find one bring her to the Creek...I'll make sure Chappy comes and she can put the rope up for us on thin cracks. Of course, we can turn the table on baggy hands.
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 11, 2017 - 04:17pm PT
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In order to fully understand warbler you need some street smarts.
This form is infested with stoopid book only smart people.
Way too many over educated people with no brains .....
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Aug 11, 2017 - 04:24pm PT
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Does anyone here even read?
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 11, 2017 - 04:41pm PT
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Kevin
I have to go to Cabrillo National Monument tomorrow from Yosemite for work.
Is it better to go on I-15 or stay on I-405?
405 thru LA is usually a nightmare?
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 11, 2017 - 04:51pm PT
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Thanks GDavis.
What a nightmare. I'm doomed :-)
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 11, 2017 - 04:56pm PT
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Gimme your address to your house Kevin
email me at wenerbr at hotmail dot com
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cat t.
climber
california
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Aug 11, 2017 - 05:22pm PT
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Feminists, you are an exception, cat, often don't want to acknowledge that men have physiological advantages in athletics because it's a tacit admission of inequity btw the sexes, but I find it silly to deny, just as it's silly to deny the advantage of being able to get two or three digits of all eight fingers into a crack as opposed to only eight tips.
1) The point I was trying to get at is that because climbing is so varied, men and women both have (different) physiological advantages while climbing. Climbing is, as we've said before, not a one-dimensional athletic endeavor. Being tall and strong isn't "cheating," and having tiny fingers is not "cheating" either. Those innate advantages--for both men and women--don't guarantee that someone will be any good, and they don't invalidate the talent and dedication that go into being a top climber.
2) I really don't think I'm an exception. All of my female friends consider themselves feminists, and all of them acknowledge that men have an athletic edge on us. I think we collectively take solace in the fact that, by insisting that we WILL keep up with our male friends on rides and hikes and skis and climbs, we are actually always pushing our personal limits harder than they are ;)
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Aug 12, 2017 - 02:45am PT
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Hire equal numbers of female engineers to keep the ladies happy so they continue to use Google products, or risk the wrath of feminists and hire the best engineers to make the best product, regardless of the sex of those engineers, even if they're predominately male?
The bottom line here is if you or anyone else thinks there is a gender basis for defining 'best' in tech engineering you are as naive, biased and clueless as Damore. The obstacles women in tech face are entirely cultural and if you want to point to some gender basis for that I'd be way more inclined to look for a biological basis for the overwhelming deficiency of interpersonal and social skills among men in tech.
In the mid-80s I worked for several years as a software engineer at what was arguably the #2 hottest, large software R&D lab in the world at the time and can tell you for a fact that socially [near-] 'normal' and capable men were as rare as women. So a backdrop to all this discussion is also the fact that the industry was built on the backs of men who - while smart - often had tremendous difficulty functioning 'normally' in their own skins let alone in society in general. And catering to and managing such a cadre and making them feel 'safe' enough to be continuously productive was largely an exercise in providing insular, 'safe' environments where distracting 'differences' were minimized. And in those environments any form of difference (sexual, race, personality, age, experience, disability, etc.) could stand out and be hard for a lot of those folks to deal with.
My personal experience there was a case in point - I came from a field office in Chicago where I worked directly with Fortune 100 customers on some of their toughest technical challenges. After several years I was asked to leave the field and come back east to work in the R&D labs. I'd been asked because that world was so insular that fewer than 1% of those 'best engineers' had ever met or talked to an actual customer of the company and somewhere north of 50% of them had never worked on a released product. In fact, if you'd worked on software that was packaged into an actual product within five years of having touched it the perception was you were working far from the cutting edge and weren't one of the brightest cookies in the tin.
Those kind of perceptions meant the fact that I came from the field and didn't have a traditional compsci or uber-nerd background was taken to mean I was someone's pet project and didn't belong there among them - i.e. I was summarily dismissed at every turn. I finally got mad and it took a series of progressively more public and harsh code-beatings solving problems that had been viewed as difficult or intractable to gain any respect and even then it was viewed as some sort of fluke the first couple of times. By the second year I had earned grudging respect, but was still viewed with suspicion for not fitting in (thank god). And over time as I was given more difficult projects I found that fewer and fewer of these 'best engineers' could answer my questions - I was increasingly being referred to a mysterious 'Stan' ("oh, that's Stan-level"). I'd never even heard of Stan and when asked the people in my group only talked about him in hushed tones; only one of them had ever met him.
And sure enough, Stan was a story all his own - definitely the smartest software human I've ever met and likely one of the top 10 in the world at that time. Thing was, Stan had gatekeepers who shielded him from the likes of me. My first dozen times attempting to ask Stan a question were headed off at the pass by his posse who either answered it or scrounged up a different resource for my question. Then, one day, they couldn't and I was given entre to Stan's corporeal presence. I was taken aback - Stan, mumbling and oddly dressed, sat in an isolated cube with high walls which were lined floor-to-walltop with empty pepsi cans. And while it took a bit for Stan to shift into human-mode and stop giving me the hairy eyeball, once he did and heard my question we ended up having a great old time for several hours the end of which he answered my actual question as sort of a trivial backhand after-thought. The experience was eye-opening and my status and cred in the R&D labs changed remarkably after my apparently rare audience with 'Stan the man'.
I quit shortly thereafter vowing never to return to such an insular and oppressive environment ever again and haven't to this day.
So it ain't just women who suffer and have to fight over and over to prove their worth in google-like environments - it's anyone who doesn't come from or fit the mold of that insular world. It's way better now, but I suspect still largely unchanged way down at its core and that's what the leadership at google is attempting to address - persistent issues of insular culture and bias that are counterproductive to operating at scale.
P.S. I later found out Stan's wife dressed him every morning and drove him to and from work every day as Stan couldn't cope with most mundane, real world tasks of living in the world.
P.P.S. At lunch in the summer I'd sometime go out in the woods behind the labs and set up my tightrope where I couldn't be seen in order to blow off steam. But they were building a second lab tower next to our facility and one day the steel workers framing it up spied me and their foreman came down and offered me a job saying they were way shorthanded and could get me into the union. I almost quit the R&D job on the spot and it really was the seed that ended up making me walk away from it all a couple of months later to start consulting.
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yanqui
climber
Balcarce, Argentina
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Aug 12, 2017 - 06:49am PT
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Confusing... please clarify
His point is the difference is cultural not biological. Duh.
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