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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
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^^^^. I think many find it is not acceptable. It's just very complicated and I'm not sure there is any quick answer or fix considering as it cuts across so many issues....political, historical, racial etc etc. If you ever visit old China town in SF (not too long ago) all you woukd find were little small "pocket parks". The rationale was that Asian kids don't really go out and play that much...they stay inside to study.
It's not an easy answer. If there weren't other "factors" considered in UC admissions about 90% of UC enrollment would be Asian if only academic measures were used. Asians represent about 15% of Ca population.
There still are many, many stereotypes, be you a WASP, Asian, Hispanic, Italian, Irish and on and on. Civil Rights, racial issues, poverty issues...so easy to talk about....so hard to define what will make the playing field equal, or what constitutes a "hand up, not a hand out".
Susan
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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so hard to define what will make the playing field equal, or what constitutes a "hand up, not a hand out"
I think that that's really well summarized, Susan. Labels have become less and less useful over the decades, and we're going to have to think about these issues with more nuance than ever before in our history.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Are you trying to say blacks should not be helped because asians are so successful?
What part of my post do you think you may not understand?
Susan clearly understood my post and gave some meandering thoughts, but she didn't answer my question.
Let me try to another tact:
1. Colleges discriminate against Asians in admissions.
2. Why is that OK?
If you disagree with (1), you're free to do so, but that is essentially a fact. Disagreeing would be similar to disagreeing with the statement that black families have a lower average net worth than white families.
As to (2), I have no idea what a reasonable answer would be, and that is what I'm looking for.
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monolith
climber
state of being
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Well said.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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^ ^ ^ (to somebody . . .)
Thanks for answering.
So it's OK to discriminate against people based on their race so long as that discrimination seems to serve some useful purpose?
Lots of interesting ramifications to that viewpoint . . .
(As a less important observation, it's not at all clear that "diversity" does in fact enhance the educational experience. I suppose that's more of a statement of opinion rather than fact. Anyway, one may wonder how all those poor students in Japan and similar places seem to do so well notwithstanding their lack of "diversity" . . .)
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
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Susan clearly understood my post and gave some meandering thoughts, but she didn't answer my question.
Let me try to another tact:
1. Colleges discriminate against Asians in admissions.
2. Why is that OK?
If you disagree with (1), you're free to do so, but that is essentially a fact. Disagreeing would be similar to disagreeing with the statement that black families have a lower average net worth than white families.
As to (2), I have no idea what a reasonable answer would be, and that is what I'm looking for.
Why the hell do you think I'd have an answer? Do I look like the magic eight ball? ;).
Your premise is far too simple regarding college admissions. "Re: colleges discriminate against Asians and why is that ok? "
Well, most colleges are more than just diploma mills. They have football teams, basketball teams, swim teams, water polo, wrestling, arts, activities etc etc. A ""fact" is that these teams are not usually represented by large populations of Asians. So one must look at all the layers and complexities of what a university wants to be. This may mean that someone with less academic readiness but more robust sports and extracurricular may trump a 4.2 GPA.
My son desperately wanted to go to UCSB. I said "you'd better get really good at water polo". BTW his last name is Fong. I think soccer put him over the top.
Susan
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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If you think white males don't have an advantage in our society, and you really believe this with your age and experience, I'm certainly not going to convince you otherwise.
Typical punt. Post a graphic that you can't sustain with any actual specifics and that has been widely debunked ("Look at any of the numerous studies, polls, graphs, etc... they're easy to find").
Look at any of the numerous studies, polls, graphs, etc..they're easy to find.
I asked for something very simple, and you appeal to "data" that is entirely interpreted. So, I'll ask again: GIVEN your chosen data, EXACTLY what systematic societal mechanisms ARE (now, not many decades ago) in place to demonstrate "white privilege"?
See, Susan rose to the challenge, just many decades old. You, however, just punt.
The group less inclined to believe there's any degree of white privilege? Conservative white men. Enter Wilmot and Wall of Text Maker.
Typical ad hominem punt. I could respond in kind by saying something like, "The group inclined to believe that there is white privilege is liberal, hand-wringing, guilt-ridden white men. Enter Crankaloon and Glue-Sniffer."
See? What's the point in a "discussion" at that level?
Let's stick with demonstrable facts.
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monolith
climber
state of being
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Are you a lawyer, by chance?
Why yes he is.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Because diversity on campus has an intrinsic value to all of the students . . . resulting in an superior educational experience for all those students
Depends on whether you think an essential part of higher education is social heterogeneity. In my opinion it can be as long as it doesn't somehow diminish the rigor of traditional courses.
Of course watering down was done years ago at schools like Harvard where some instructors gave all A's to keep students out of the draft. I don't think higher ed ever truly recovered from that.
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
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just many decades old.
Augusta National Country Club admitted its first two women in 2012.
I'll work on more contemporary examples. But I gotta spin class. ;)
Later,
Susan
Mueller' special team: Out of 12 attorneys, 2 women.
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Norton
Social climber
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Harvard where some instructors gave all A's to keep students out of the draft
wow, i have not heard of that going on
sources, links please, can't seem to find on my own
by the way, a student deferment required a C average during Vietnam, so why the A's you say Harvard had to give the students?
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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That's the sort of utter BS, poking-with-sticks CRAP that makes these "discussions" not even worth honest people's time. Seriously, you should be ashamed of yourself that you find it acceptable to impugn people's motives in that way.
That sort of comment is unacceptable, and honest people on this site should decry it. Only that way can we elevate the discussion to include all and only demonstrable facts and principles.
well you responded, must be true; and don't impugn my character.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Mueller' special team: Out of 12 attorneys, 2 women.
Yeah, but the struggle is to not slip into trying to achieve equality of outcome. Equality of opportunity is a very different thing. And we have to keep public and private sector comparisons constant.
Also, regarding selective admission of women, men, or other demographic groups at a private institution is fine by me. There are today institutions that are women-only. No problem at all!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_colleges_in_the_United_States
If there were a black-only college, libs wouldn't be screaming about that! But a white-only college? Are you kidding? Libs would LITERALLY be burning it to the ground.
Oh, wait, there are a number of essentially black-only colleges/universities. Howard University is just one example, with a 95% black student body and a history of admission-emphasis of blacks only. That's TODAY.
Then there's Muhammad University of Islam in Chicago that effectively admits only black students. Nobody's wringing their hands about this!
And there are more.
The point is that what happens at private universities that cater to a defined demographic is not a "social problem." It's unreasonable to expect "equal opportunity" in all segments of private life. Yet, somehow libs are not screaming about "black racist universities" as they would be if there was some "KKK University" that admitted only whites.
Why is that? I wonder. WHY are libs not screaming and threatening to burn down Muhammad University of Islam, which is radically sectarian and flat-out racist in its admission policies?
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Norton
Social climber
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I believe the federal Affirm Action law as upheld by by the courts applies to public universities, privately funded ones are exempt
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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privately funded ones are exempt
Right. So Susan's example doesn't apply.
It is of note that even a private "KKK University" would not be allowed to stand by libs. The same liberal riots that take place (with arson and other violence) when a "conservative" speaker shows up at a public campus would be inflicted upon something like a "KKK University."
Why is that?
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jonnyrig
climber
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Everyone should have to work a stint in a life-critical operation for a supervisor who is there not on merit; but on EEO recommendations.
In theory, this is all about equality of opportunity. In practice, I think it often ends up being opportunity of outcome, not necessarily based on merit.
Yes, that's likely offensive, and just as with the abuse of social welfare programs it's also likely to happen only in a minority of circumstances; but it should nevertheless be addressed to avoid generating the outrageous rancor that's often expressed over exactly such limited numbers of occurrences.
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Here's what Roger Clegg, the president of the conservative center for equal opportunity, had to say:
"I remember when I was interviewing for a law professor job at one point, and I was told point blank that I was not likely to get this job because of my skin colour. I was taken aback ..
Here is someone who has worked very hard and yet they are being told that their odds are going to be .. a lot worse than other people (because of their) skin color."
That poor white guy, taken aback by the idea that his odds might be worse because of his skin color, a reality that black people live with every day, and live with while having 13 times less wealth than white people. And what he was taken aback by was that someone might say it out loud.
The trick is not to say it out loud.
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
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privately funded ones are exempt
Typically not true. Especially regarding Title IX provisions. Why, or How? Because if any student receives federal student aid (tuition) the university must abide by federal rules and regs. A vast majority of students get federal aid loans. About 50 universities (typically small religious universities) have asked for waivers. There are only a handful that in no way, shape or form take fed $.
WHY are libs not screaming and threatening to burn down
I just don't agree with your continual need to ascribe specific and defined (by you) beliefs to a broad spectrum of folks. I know many people whom I would, "big picture" consider conservative and wouldn't agree with (exclusively) black only or white only universities. I would consider myself socially liberal, maybe even libertarian, and I don't agree with schools that would be designated race based only.
Traditionally black colleges, like Howard and West Chester State have a long historical basis for why they were established. And we all know why. There are traditionally white colleges (well most of them) but especially religious schools like BYU, Liberty University to name just a couple.
Equal opportunity vs equal outcomes is a fascinating topic and "what it looks like" and "should look like" but for another time.
I'm still trying to come to grips with "Hillbilly Elergy".
Susan.
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