Pro-War Crowd: ADMIT YOU WERE WRONG part duex

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Hawkeye

climber

State of Mine

Dec 10, 2006 - 02:54am PT

give him what he wants!

yeah, let us fight those haters of israel.

fattred lead the way!

stick his fat ass in here and launch him into gaza....

jstan

climber

Dec 10, 2006 - 12:54pm PT

I will repeat an earlier post rather than add-on after the fact.

From Dec.9 NYT. Quite succinct.
_
[No matter what positions they take today, all Republicans would prefer that the 2008 elections not be fought on the battleground of Iraq, said Douglas Foyle, professor of government at Wesleyan University.

“They don’t want the 2008 presidential and Congressional campaign to be about staying the course,” Professor Foyle said. “That’s where the calculus of Bush and the Republicans diverge very quickly. Everyone is thinking about the next election, and Bush doesn’t have one.”]
_

If that is the environment, I would think Congressional republicans will not be loath to show the divergence by voting for a discovery process. Why are we there? Will be interesting to see how it plays out.

ADDITION from the Dec.10 LA Times:

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-bush10dec10,0,5500718.story?coll=la-headlines-nation

“As republicans departed Capitol Hill this weekend, some who used to dismiss Democratic attempts to investigate the administration as political posturing are now lining up for greater oversight of the executive branch”…..

Today’s news also suggest more troops will be sent to Iraq. When they get there we can expect casualty rates to be higher than in the past, especially since the number of “trainers”( highly vulnerable unsupported personnel) is to be increased. It will now get dicey very quickly, I suspect. Where this is leading, only Ouch! Knows.

HighDesertDJ

Trad climber

Arid-zona

Dec 10, 2006 - 01:36pm PT

Mr. Long, great question! I too am curious if the Fatness will acknowledge such a liberal, cowardly idea as this "limitation" on force.

HighDesertDJ

Trad climber

Arid-zona

Dec 11, 2006 - 01:02pm PT

Fatty how do you reconcile your statement with your previous statement supporting the "democratization" of the middle east as a way of creating a more stable east?

Patrick Sawyer

climber

Originally California now Ireland

Dec 11, 2006 - 03:18pm PT

Tony, if you are for real, and I believe you are, then you obviously have walked the walk, and I do not envy your job.

It seems to me that if you indeed have been out there fighting, then you must know first hand how senseless war can be. Perhaps it is the case that war-war is sometimes inevitable, perhaps, but I still prefer jar-jar and I do not think near enough communicating is done by our leaders and others.

Hey John, how's the healing?

Matt

Trad climber

places you shouldn't talk about in polite company

Topic Author's Reply - Dec 11, 2006 - 03:57pm PT

chaz wrote:
"Another question: How many of these folks were killed by Americans? And how many were killed by people who aren't Americans?"

are we familiar w/ the clear responsibility of an occupying army to provide security within the country it occupies? because that responsibility is widely accepted and is clearly spelled out by international law.

OT- i happened to catch a few minutes of rush limbaugh this AM, he was claiming that global warming was a total farce, and being promoted by liberals w/ the explicit intention of creating a global government that would be led by the UN and whose main purpose would be to reduce the prosperity of the US.

you gotta love the real whackos...

golsen

Social climber

kennewick, wa

Dec 11, 2006 - 10:29pm PT

Patrick,

Tony is for real. He wrote a guidebook for City of Rocks once upon a time and is a dedicated and very experienced Trad climber. While I dont always agree with how he says things this time it was a pertinent post, well spoken.

matt said, are we familiar w/ the clear responsibility of an occupying army to provide security within the country it occupies? because that responsibility is widely accepted and is clearly spelled out by international law.

The political position is that we are not an occupying force these days. However, in my mind this does raise other more significant questions. If we are not an occupying force then we are somewaht at the mercy of the current Iraqi government which in my mind is not acceptable for the military.

Throughout history, the only way that a war was one was when the offending country was so beaten it could not wage war any longer. The battle was to kill the other guy and then be done with it. The current battles are significantly different in that we dont always know who the enemy is, and based upon Tony's post there may be so much collateral damage to going after them that the military cannot do that in good conscience.

A terrible conundrum huh? Couple that with the fact that most Americans do not like protracted war and we have a problem. I dont know what the right answer is, but I do feel for those who have lost loved ones serving over there and I feel for the Iraqi people. In another web site Tony said that he was there to help the Iraqi people and I think that is highly honorable. Now, how do we go about helping them in the best possible way.

BTW, fattrad must obviously be a troll. A fat, big, ugly troll.

Wild Bill,

Sorry for the loss of your friend. But, important "games" still have to played regardless of personal losses, I didn't resign from the Sheriff's Department after my friend Jack Miller was shot and killed on duty.

Jody's evil twin.

This post was inexecusable IMHO. I hope voices like yours are silenced by the same means you espouse, force.

jackass

climber

Dec 11, 2006 - 10:39pm PT

fattrad wrote "When someone threatens your existence, and they are capable of it, it is perfectly acceptable to nuke them."

Nice. I guess we have permission to nuke the White House then.

and I disagree with Golsen, Tony's post was bullshite. In fact, we have someone speaking to us who has admittedly taken another human being's life. He will say anything to rationalize that action to himself because the alternative is devastating.

bob d'antonio

Trad climber

Taos, NM

Dec 11, 2006 - 10:43pm PT

Fattrad wrote: fattrad wrote "When someone threatens your existence, and they are capable of it, it is perfectly acceptable to nuke them."

No wonder the US is so fearful of other coutries getting wmd's.

Hawkeye

climber

State of Mine

Dec 11, 2006 - 10:46pm PT

jackass, you ought to be glad there are folks out there willing to fight for your freedoms. i think if hitler would have one youd stink up the ovens.

jackass

climber

Dec 11, 2006 - 10:52pm PT

No hawkeye, Tony and such are not fighting for MY freedom, if my freedom ever needs fighting for, I'll do it myself. Funny as sh#t for you to think that flying to the other side of the world and invading a country can be called "fighting for our freedom." What are you drinking? It sounds like an invasion to me, an invasion that was not sanctioned by the rest of the world. You reap what you sow.

Hawkeye

climber

State of Mine

Dec 11, 2006 - 10:58pm PT

jackass,
Tony and about 500,000 other folks in the military sign up to follow orders. despite whether or not the war would be justified. i dont agree with the war in iraq either but blame goes to the pres, not the guys dieing over there.

ps - i still think youd stink the feckin ovens up...

jackass

climber

Dec 11, 2006 - 11:09pm PT

Yup, they drink the Kool-aid.

Being willing to follow blind orders does not seem very noble to me. Hitler's army drank the Kool-aid too.

In fact, do you know why the Nazis started killing and burning the Jews? Because they thought they were being compassionate! The Jews were starving to death in the Ghettos, the compassionate thing was to kill them and put them out of their misery.

Hawkeye

climber

State of Mine

Dec 11, 2006 - 11:19pm PT

well jackass, having sh#t for brains is kind of a funny thing, cuz sh#t dont learn...apparent from your posts...

i dont have much patience for anyone bashing on the military. they are partly responsible for you having the ability to spray what you want when you want.

what do you contribute to world peace? provide fertilizer?

HighDesertDJ

Trad climber

Arid-zona

Dec 11, 2006 - 11:24pm PT

'Fattrad wrote: fattrad wrote "When someone threatens your existence, and they are capable of it, it is perfectly acceptable to nuke them." '

I love when Fatty makes the argument for both sides at the same time. It happens all too often.

What was it North Korea were asking for again as a major part of the talks to end their nuclear program? Hrm....oh right. Assurances that we wouldn't attack them.

What was Iran doing in 2002? Oh right...offering to help out in Afghanistan so that hopefully we wouldn't attack them.

What are they both doing now? Pursuing nuclear weapons (presumably in the case of Iran, it is still yet to be proven) so that they have ASSURANCES THAT WE WON'T ATTACK THEM.

Seems like simply assuring them that we could work things out in such a way that we wouldn't attack them would have gone a long way a few years ago.

jackass

climber

Dec 11, 2006 - 11:25pm PT

I would be willing to bet that I have studied the last 4 major wars more than most soldiers in the military. I would be willing to bet that I have studied the last 4 major wars more than President Bush. You are claiming that I am the one that hasn't learned anything? Are you watching how the U.S. military is acting on the global stage? Who hasn't learned anything?

HighDesertDJ

Trad climber

Arid-zona

Dec 11, 2006 - 11:33pm PT

Tony Calderone!!! Holy crap I KNEW I knew that name!! It finally just clicked!

We met in Tuolumne Meadows in August of 1999 at the base of South Crack. You were wandering around with a drill kit yanking old 1/4" bolts and redrilling them with 3/8" holes and then leaving them empty for removable bolts!

I seem to recall that you are/were also part owner of a removable bolt company.

You also claimed that John Bachar said you could retrofit all his routes in Tuolumne for removable bolts. I never bothered to ask him about that when I was living in Mammoth but he does frequent this forum.