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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Um, Karl, he's indulging in a bit or irony here. And JG, its Richard Goldstone, not Richard Gold. I'm not clear on why the latter name is somehow associated with male prostitution, so I guess the former name may be just as susceptible. In any case, flattery will get you nowhere.
Anyway...uhhh...what he's basically saying is that the only justification for running it out instead of drilling is if you can't stop, which even I don't agree with completely.
Nope. Not what I'm saying.
Also I wonder if he realizes that what he might consider to be a dangerously bolted sport route is actually pretty safe due to the steepness, and that people take massive whippers on upper end sport routes all the time.
When I said "dangerous," I meant dangerous, not "actually pretty safe but apparently dangerous to someone with little knowledge and experience."
They even skip bolts, Realization at Ceuse commonly gets pointed on 4 bolts, the same number as on p2 of the B-Y...
This has nothing to do with anything I said, and the absurdity of juxtaposing the voluntary skipping of bolts on Realization, typically after making full use of them to wire the moves, with the situation demanded by B-Y has already, I think, been discussed on this site.
That said, it is hard to have a genuinely tidy philosophical stance when people insist bringing up inconvenient realities. I'm aware of a large number of objections one might make to what I said, based on this or that case, either real or hypothetical, and I momentarily considered a legalistic manifesto festooned with whereas's and however's, but I concluded that the basic distinction between
(1) a level of danger naturally imposed by the terrain in a context in which confronting the unknown includes unknown protection opportunities
(2) a level of danger consciously created for no other purpose than to have danger, in a context in which the conventional expectation is that danger has been eliminated
is a worthwhile distinction to keep in mind for some of these bolting arguments.
The unsurprising fact that so simple an articulation of general principles fails to address this or that particular situation is not enough, in my view, to repudiate the basic distinction.
And there is, of course, no discernable difference between a dangerously bolted sport route and a runout trad one.
This reminds me of a middle school joke, in which the jokester asks, "do you know how to tell the difference between a mailbox and an elephant's ass?"
When the target of the joke replies "no," the retort is,
"Well, I won't be giving you any letters to mail."
Metaphysically speaking, I think I'll stick to mailing my own letters here too.
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Degaine
climber
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I’ve waded through both threads and could someone kindly answer two questions to which I have just not found the answer (I’ll admit that I may have missed it):
1) Where are the acres of rock being « used up » by these so called death routes – routes for which hordes would be lining up to climb if better bolted? Besides the DNB no routes where “hordes would be lining up if better bolted” have been listed. I know Hair raiser buttress has been mentioned in other threads, but that’s just one route. All other notoriously run out routes/areas seem frequented enough - Eldo, Tuolumne, etc. – that the apparent “run outness” does not seem to bother.
I’m a climber of very modest abilities and have climbed in California (mostly Northern with the exception of the Needles) fairly extensively and have never had a problem finding routes to climb.
2) Also, does a self proclaimed “5.8 climber” have some divine right to have all routes or pitches rated 5.8 be within his or her reach?
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Overall, I think Joe's point is a pretty good one, but my guess is that many of these scary routes get done more than you think. There's lots of good climbers out there, and many of them don't toot their horn every time they do some scary testpiece.
I think Joe does underestimate how hard something, say, two grades below your limit really is. A route in the Black Canyon, the Flakes, comes to mind. It has a 5.9 chimney pitch, virtually unprotectable, that makes this a seldom done classic. There are lots of climbers who have done much harder routes in the Black that have not done this one. And it's only 5.9!
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randomtask
climber
North fork, CA
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Glad too see this getting resolved and not turn into a pissing contest. :)
-JR
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Joe wrote: And there is, of course, no discernable difference between a dangerously bolted sport route and a runout trad one.
There is a big difference and I think you know and understand the difference.
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Murf
climber
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All this talk of retro bolting always makes me feel like the world is being sanitized.
My climbing is defined as much by what I climb as what I do not climb.
There are routes I have not done because I am too scared.
There are routes that I have done that I am too scared to do again.
I like that... Actually, I need it.
Physical strength and technique is one measure of climbing. Another is the day when mind and body combine to make the impossible possible. If every route is mundane, how does one find any enchantment?
I stated this in the other thread as well. I haven't run out climbing to do. If anything, the list is growing longer. I haven't run out of FA's to do, if anything, the list grows longer.
Murf
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Murf
climber
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weschrist sez
Nice Russ. Let me know when someone fixes Ecstacy.
This is the route you want to base your "platform" on?
Wes, can I assume that you have contacted Herbert about the route, got his opinion on adding bolts?
From there, you've spoken to the active Bishop climbers about the status of the route, how most would feel about a bolt or two added? Of course, I can only assume that you've climbed every route in the Pratt's Crack area, including the ones that have gone up in the last couple of years.
I wonder if you put any of those new routes up? I mean, a major part of your issue is the fact that the "old dads" ( although Ecstacy is hardly old ) frittered away most of the good stone. How many good routes have gone up in Pratt's Crack Area in the last 5 years? How about up and down the canyon?
How is it when I look at Ecstacy I wonder about the day that I'll lead it, if ever ( most likely never )? You see a screwed up route, I see a future that is there for me if I want it enough. I could do it you know... really.
Murf
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Murf
climber
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Melissa sez
"How hard can you climb?"
and
"How hard can you climb impeccably?"
Very well said Melissa.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Dec 22, 2011 - 11:41am PT
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skating on stilts
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