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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 27, 2006 - 11:05am PT
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Talk about having 9 lives...
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Nov 27, 2006 - 12:31pm PT
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A footnote to Jello's account of a late-sixties all nut ascent on Mt. Ogden.
I too remember Robbin's summit article, which I think was entitled "Nuts to You." Either through that article or through personal communication, I don't remember which, a number of us obtained the address of Joe Brown's equipment shop. You sent him $15, and back came what was at the time a "complete set" of nuts, complete with precut webbing.
I remember mostly aluminum wedges like the ones in the upper left-hand corner of Steve Grossman's photos. The size range would nowadays be that of medium stoppers. The webbing was sized so that the nuts were worn necklace-style. Although this made for a nice sling length, I found that carrying a wad of nuts around your neck, as apparently most of the British climbers of the day did, to be a scary proposition. If any of them caught on anything during a fall, you'd be garroted. Moreover, every time you leaned forward, the necklace wad swung forward to obstruct your view of your feet. Trying to do any slab climbing with this rig was a real challenge.
The immediate reaction of most Gunks climbers to the nuts were that they were nice but would never work in the horizontal cracks that characterized the rock here. So it was with lots of trepidation that Dave Craft and I, armed with my Joe Brown protection necklace foot-obscurer, set out to try Double Crack, which was, in the late sixties, still thought to be reasonably stiff at 5.9 (although now downgraded to 5.8 and the victim of a much more stringent concept of stiffness). It was, we reasoned, fractured enough to provide the kind of vertical features we thought necessary for nut use, and this turned out to be the case---our ascent, also in the late sixties, may have been the first all-nut ascent of a "difficult" route in the East.
The Joe Brown set was not, in fact, reasonable for the majority of Gunks routes, and it wasn't until Chouinard's wired stoppers, and Stannard's careful, scientific field investigation of their fall-holding potential, that the possibility of heading up hard new routes without pins emerged. It turned out that the rock had many features that would take good stoppers, features we had never noticed because they weren't good piton placements. This was a major change of perspective, truly an opening of blind eyes, and probably more of a revelation than Western climbers experienced, because in granite it was more a question of using nuts in the same features pins had been placed in.
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scuffy b
climber
The town that Nature forgot to hate
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Nov 27, 2006 - 04:32pm PT
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Roger, when I first climbed Nutcracker in 1973 I was surprised
by the piton scars on the 3rd pitch, the one that ends under the roof. On more recent views, and having seen things like Serenity
Crack, I'd have to say the scars on Nutcracker are just about
negligible. They don't create jams, they dont destroy them.
Visible, though.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Nov 27, 2006 - 04:47pm PT
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Thanks for the info, Steve. I only remember not remembering any pin scars--not the same thing as remembering that there weren't any. It is too bad that there are any, given the climb and Royal's intent. Folks who objected to all natural protection should have done what Pratt did: climb a new route close by and mock the name Royal gave to his new route.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Nov 28, 2006 - 12:37am PT
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Hey Jello, here's another gem from the road to better gear. An original Lowe cam. With a heavy cast lobe, promising looking, but potentially a real headache in the making due to its tendency to pop out sideways off the back of the stem.
A very early Lowe Alpine Systems ad and the much improved double cam on the right. Vintage 1974.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 28, 2006 - 01:08am PT
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That was the year I landed in Southern Illinois on my return from Vietnam. There was a second generation of cavers-turned-climbers there who had started in Gill's wake and got our third generation started. From their ethics in caving they were rabid followers of LNT and lept on the clean manifesto and climbing with nuts. We knew nothing else under their brief and spartan tutelage. For us, the whole idea of pounding a pin or drilling a bolt seemed both completely foreign and deeply sacrilegious at the same time.
And given the routes were beautiful sandstone puzzles we didn't use chalk so as not to give away the fun or ruin the appearance of the sandstone colors. In the end we went to some pretty extreme lengths to avoid altering the rock in anyway. I remember we did lots of nut and hex stacking but it all seemed completely matter-of-fact and business-as-usual at the time. We also had no exposure to the outside world until we started to hitchhike to Eldo about 18 months later - that was a real eye-opener. But the clean ethics seemed the same there at the time and we felt completely instep in that respect if not with the breathtaking scale of the place which took us some getting used to. Not sure we could have even dealt with the Valley then as we were pretty blown away by the scale of Eldo as it was...
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jstan
climber
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Nov 28, 2006 - 02:15am PT
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Hey Joe:
You do any caving in southern Indiana? I was there for a little bit in 59. Can't remember any of the names but they were something else. Remember walking forever along one gravel based streambed in a graceful passage whose dimensions seemed not to change at all. Like a boulevard. Colored reflections of light coming off the formations on the walls. The sumps were exciting but only because at the time I thought I was immortal. Smarter now.
Cheers,
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 28, 2006 - 02:27am PT
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John,
No way - those guys are completely nuts. There are some massive caves in the whole So.Ill./So. Ind./S.E. Mo. area and those guys repeatedly tried to enlist me to bolt up a water fall or go down some rabbit hole somewhere. One time I got to the scene in time to find them getting ready to lower down a tiny, moss-covered hole that a busy, foot-and-half-wide stream simply disappeared into at about a sixty degree angle. It was so tight the guy had a 10 minute pony bottle between his legs and a chest harness rigged like a parachute with the ropes coming off the top of the shoulders so they could pull him out with a truck. I mean this was an frigging FD (first descent) or whatever they call it in that world; shimmy down some hole you might get stuck in and have it fill up with water because you're the plug - not on your f#cking life!!!!
My primary take on caving? There is no way that, in absolute desperation, you can attempt to fall out of a cave. Not for me kimosabe. Probably explains a lot about Pete not free climbing that he likes and is good at caving. Hey, Pete! Is that how you do walls - you just pretend you're getting back out as opposed to up once you get started?
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jstan
climber
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Nov 28, 2006 - 11:14am PT
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Joe:
It is all in the technology. Not a problem. In one of those plugged hole situations you just breathe through a length of garden hose running down between your legs. Got all the air you need. As long as you don't drop into a lake. Need the truck though. A 100' foot long column of water is pretty heavy.
Lois has agreed to go caving this weekend. What's with you?
Cheers,
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2006 - 05:52pm PT
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HOW TO GO CLIMBIN' OLD-SCHOOL STYLE:
1- Pick a good climb, Like Arching Jams on Pike's Peak (middle of photo)
2- Then rack up some nuts, and your balls and what-have-you (if ya got 'em)
3- Then lead the full-length first pitch. It's OK to place a couple of the nuts you're totin'.
4- Then let your partner lead on through, then follow 'em up, grabbin' the nuts if there are some.
VOILA! Old school clamberin'. Simple, huh?
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Nov 28, 2006 - 05:58pm PT
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Hey Jeff, I like the juxtaposition of the nice rank of nuts followed by a picture of a long lead with nothing in. Ummm.
Buzz
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2006 - 06:02pm PT
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No use wastin' 'em if ya don' need 'em, huh, Rog? By the way, that was Mike Weis leading the first pitch.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Nice Pikes Peak posting Jello. Is that a Moac nut next to the #8 Stopper down low on the classic rack?
Hey Rich, great Gunks posting. Any chance of an image of the Joe Brown nuts?
I've climbed at the Gunks enough to realize that of all the early protection, hexes with their camming action in the horizontal placements, were probably the biggest help until RPs came along. One aspect of the Gunks that really makes it special is the no new fixed anchor policy put in place by the governing bodies long ago which has left the entire area relatively pristine. Lines of bolts and chalk marks on every edge is just not something that you're going to run into. Since you were involved with a lot of route development, perhaps this is a source of sour grapes. Hugh Herr was right when he told me that I would "Love the Gunks."
Cheers,
Steve
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jstan
climber
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Steve:
Anyone interested in prior art in nuts should contact Stephane Pennequin
http://www.needlesports.com/nutsmuseum/nutsmuseum.htm
He has been building a nut museum for many years. The continental makers of original nut designs have been filling in the blank spots in his collection.
Even prior to the availability of camming units we got excellent protection in the Gunks. The hydraulic unit I built to carry up on the cliff to test actual placements plus test data from throwing off Army duffle bags filled with shale said straight away nuts were for real.
There were relatively few places where using artificial protection would have helped me. And it was obviously only a matter of time before a climber who could do those problems as they really were would come along. They deserved to find their routes waiting for them. We all felt that way. Leave some room for the kids.
Cheers,
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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"Any chance of an image of the Joe Brown nuts?
They might be in my attic somewhere...but for now they are as good as gone.
"I've climbed at the Gunks enough to realize that of all the early protection, hexes with their camming action in the horizontal placements, were probably the biggest help until RPs came along."
From my perspective, wired stoppers were the major advance, especially in medium and small sizes. Once our eyes adjusted, it turned out that a large number of "keyhole" placements were (and are) possible in Gunks horizontal cracks, and of course there were the forearm-killing opposed horizontal rigs. (Those "keyhole" placements, by the way, are among the strongest and most stable nut placements there are. I would, and still do, take a keyholed stopper in a horizontal over a cam any day.)
Stannard came up with the idea of threading two consecutive sized stoppers on cord and then bending the top one over the bottom one to create a placement that expanded under tension, and made camming nuts that were a precursor of tricams. But camming hexes? I don't think they had a significant impact---the camming range is so small that an absolutely perfect fit (and a uniform crack) is required.
"One aspect of the Gunks that really makes it special is the no new fixed anchor policy put in place by the governing bodies long ago which has left the entire area relatively pristine."
The "governing bodies" were the Preserve leaders, Dan Smiley in particular, and they had the both the insight and faith in human decency to seek, in open climbers meetings, the opinion of the climbing community about fixed anchors and bolts. The fact that climbers had a major role in determining the future of their area is, I think, unprecedented, and may turn out to be one of the unique examples of cooperation, at the policy-making level, in the climbing world. (The activities of the Eldorado Climbers Coalition are the only other comparable example I know of.)
I might add that, for better or worse, (and I think worse) the willingness to open up climbing policy decisions to the climbing community at large, at least in the inclusive way of Dan Smiley, is no longer a feature of Preserve management Even so, the Preserve-climber relationship remains a world-wide model for cooperation.
"Lines of bolts and chalk marks on every edge is just not something that you're going to run into."
Well, the Preserve has installed some bolts in order to cut down on ratty nests of rappel slings, and by and large I think it was a mistake. As for chalk, there is quite a bit on popular routes. It doesn't show as badly as it does, say, in Eldorado, but there is enough to constitute an eyesore, especially on the boulders that border the carriage road.
"Since you were involved with a lot of route development, perhaps this is a source of sour grapes."
History will record that my role in Gunks climbing was very minor. My few efforts were almost immediately and resoundingly eclipsed by the achievements of Stannard, Barber, Bragg, and Wunsch, whose impeccable style left no room for any emotion other than admiration.
Since that golden age of trad, sport climbing has infused the climbing game with entirely new paradigms. Such developments are inevitable, and I think traditionalists who are unable to appreciate the fantastic achievements in these new arenas probably need some more Geritol and Viagra. On the other hand, as more and more sport crags proliferate, the determination to keep the Gunks, located as they are in the midst of an enormous population concentration, as a traditional area looks more and more like a stroke of genius. You do not necessarily have to go to remote back-country regions to get at least a little taste of adventure climbing.
The one thing about modern trends that saddens me is the apparent absence of the formerly widespread sentiment, expressed recently in this thread by John Stannard, that there are things that ought to be left for the next generation, rather than being technologically reduced to abilities (no matter how high) of the current generation.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Great post Rich,
I too hate to see people getting greedy and ahead of themselves in the new route arena. The spirit of fair play and sportsmanship that seemed to dominate Gunks history is something to be proud of. The lines sat patiently until the right puzzler came along and bagged them. Keyhole nuts are the best in my book too. Frost Sentinel nuts at the moment.
I built the Go Vertical climbing gym in Stamford, CT years ago. I had a really fun time climbing in the Gunks placing small hexes in the abundant horizontal cracks. Then there are the RP's that kept Hugh Herr on Broadway for years. Once the ground is out of play all of the roofs and air is amazing. Can't wait to climb back east again.
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jstan
climber
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You don't often get a chance to correct Richard in an error. Here I have a chance to correct two. I did not originate the stacked stopper idea. A climber in Washington DC, I am embarassed to admit I forget who, showed that to me. It has amazing power to adapt to two plane surfaces at arbitrary angle to each other simply by rotating one of the stoppers in its plane. To make it all work the runner has to be smaller than the largest runner you can put through the smaller of the two stoppers. The runner makes its turn at the top of the smaller stopper. Once set by jerking the sling at all angles in the plane of the placement the unit resists forces from all directions. It is quite unique in this regard and mimics the property of a piton. Use of these units as single stoppers is almost never impeded by the presence of the other stopper.
The three combinations I settled on:
#5 and #6 on 6?mm perlon
#6 and #7 on 7?mm perlon
#6 and #9?( 17/16" max width) on 1/2" tubular
Richard believes he had minor impact on route development. Not true. He was primarily interested in bouldering in an area where there were few others of a like mind at the time. I went on his boulder tours with him not because I thought I would be able to thrash up them somehow. I went for two reasons. By watching him I learned where lay the limit on what the human can do. When I later saw a possible line his was the metric I used to decide whether the possibility was real. My second reason was his running commentary. Humorous, interesting and always informative. I believe the other guys learned from him similarly. If I would try to come up with an image to summarize this I would go to The Wizard of Oz. Richard was the guy behind the curtain who actually made it all happen.
Cheers,
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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"But camming hexes? I don't think they had a significant impact---the camming range is so small that an absolutely perfect fit (and a uniform crack) is required."
Hmmm, yeah, counting just on Hex camming was often sketch - mainly because they'd rattle out if you even tweaked the sling as you went by. But we stacked Hexs like mad in every conceivable configuration, though. With other Hexs and in combination with stoppers and Titons. We'd do end-to-end Hex/Titon stacks and I've even stacked hexs end-to-end, with a smaller one just fitting inside a larger one up against the sling/perlon and then just clipping the larger one so the sling/perlon the little one is up against is tensioned (and this occassionally worked despite what your thinking...). We had pockets in SoIll that you could put as big a hex as would fit through the entrance and then an appropriate key stopper in along side it to keep the hex from coming back out (clipping just the hex). I went back and forth on the multiple stoppers on a single strand thing because it really limited your other combo options even if it was way more secure as a single unit.
"One aspect of the Gunks that really makes it special is the no new fixed anchor policy put in place by the governing bodies long ago which has left the entire area relatively pristine."
"On the other hand, as more and more sport crags proliferate, the determination to keep the Gunks, located as they are in the midst of an enormous population concentration, as a traditional area looks more and more like a stroke of genius. You do not necessarily have to go to remote back-country regions to get at least a little taste of adventure climbing. "
I wholeheartedly agree and if I were a lawyer I'd go further and be working to try to have selected crags designated as "trad preserve" set-asides that are protected in perpetuity even if that meant sacrificing potential mixed and bolted trad lines.
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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Brian Greenwood did the first ascent of Belfry (4 pitches, 5.8) on Yamnuska in the Canadian Rockies in 1957 using only nuts.
Brian was ahead of his time.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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I'd like to interupt this thread to report that it does indeed take balls to use nuts.
Photos will be available later, but today Jello went up on Touchstone for the thirtieth anniversary. Despite debilitation resulting from his MS Jeff took the sharp end on the second pitch, had some trouble at the start, took a fall when his third nut blew, but swarmed back up the pitch and completed it.
Jeff's the man!
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