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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Mar 30, 2016 - 12:23pm PT
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Thanks for the response Limping....
How do you reconcile the billions of other people on this planet who believe in a completely different book(s) of myths and fables? I appreciate you believe the Bible as the word of your God but what about the teaming masses of billions of Hindu's, Muslims, Jews, ancient Egyptians, etc....? Literally millions of educated intelligent people that believe something completely different.
What's your take on more recent belief systems like Scientology?
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Mar 30, 2016 - 01:44pm PT
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Ask A Christian. LOL Good name for a new route...
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 30, 2016 - 04:06pm PT
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First, I hope this isn't getting too dense. The whole point of Christianity is to have a loving relationship with Jesus and to show his love to others. I don't claim to have the perfect answer to every question, but am just sharing what I believe as someone who believes in Jesus. I hope everyone would read the first four books of the New Testament. It won't take too long and then at least you'll have a better understanding of why you reject or accept it!
Why the lack of miracles for the last 2000 years? Does God care about saving people as he did for the Israelites from Egypt ? I believe that miracles were not simply to do something for a few people, but to show the authority of God. In the Old Testament they were usually done by only a few people to show that their message is from God (1st Kings 17:17-24, all of the Stuff Moses did). In the New Testament they are to show that Jesus has the authority of God and then later that his disciples bring a true message from Jesus. Teachings came with the miracles and I believe the teachings were completed with Jesus and his disciples and the greatest miracle of all is that we can have a relationship with God by simply asking, and this will save anyone. That miracle still happens every single day.
Yes, that's exactly what real research does. Sorry, but I don't believe that anyone will ever scientifically prove anything about God. He knew this and wants us to have faith, love and trust.
Why Matthew traces Joseph's descent from King David via ~28 generations while Luke traces ~41 generations? Old testament prophesied that the Messiah would be descended from Davis but since Joseph wasn't the father of Jesus, then isn't Joseph's ancestry irrelevant? I believe that Luke gives Jesus' biological lineage through Mary and Matthew give Jesus' legal lineage through Joseph. Both include David so that addresses your second point. Jews are meticulous record keepers, especially with genealogies, so I don't believe this is a blatant error that was just recently noticed (the original language doesn't have a work for father-in-law so that trips some people up).
Wan't Jesus born after King Herod's death? Then, why does the Bible talk about Herod's massacre of the innocents like it's relevant? I do not believe that Herod died before Jesus was born. Luke does not use the word "governor" when he talks about Quirinius taking a census so it does not contradict the historical writing of Josephus (They're actually both historical writings, some people ignore that).
Also, are you familiar with the great prayer experiment? (Where there were three groups of patients with the same illness. One group was prayed by number of people across the US and didn't know it, the second group was not prayed and didn't know it and the third group was prayed by large number of people and were aware of it. The first two groups recovered about the same rate and the last group did the worse.) What do you conclude from this experiment? Ha! What the what? No, I had never heard of that. I believe God does not want people to test him, so I'm not surprised it didn't work (Luke 4:12).
How do you reconcile the billions of other people on this planet who believe in a completely different book(s) of myths and fables? I appreciate you believe the Bible as the word of your God but what about the teaming masses of billions of Hindu's, Muslims, Jews, ancient Egyptians, etc....? Literally millions of educated intelligent people that believe something completely different.
What's your take on more recent belief systems like Scientology? After coming to the conclusion that there must be some sort of higher power for other reasons I again looked at many of the beliefs to see what had the most merit. I addressed some of this with my first response on this thread but I'll VERY briefly mention big hurdles I found for the ones you mentioned.
-Hinduism: Some really great ideas, and I actually heard this was the second choice for CS Lewis when he decided he wasn't an atheist. But in the end it teaches that all paths are true and ways to enlightenment, which can't be possible if some paths teach that they are the only way. It's illogical and contradictory.
-Muslim: Claims that the Old Testament and the Gospels were inspired by God but then contradicts them. That doesn't make sense to me, especially since the Qur'an was dictated by one guy.
-Jews: They have the best, most coherent, evidence but did not accept that Jesus fulfilled all of their prophesies because they wanted someone to come take over and rule an actual political kingdom. If I believed Jewish teaching I would have to believe the new testament too, and therefor not be Jewish.
-Ancient Egyptians and many similar ancient religions: To be short, they offer to reason for God(s) to even make people or tolerate people in the first place.
-Scientology: I think it sounds more like a self help program made by people than anything given by God.
I would love if those people, who already acknowledge that there's something bigger than themselves, would come to know Jesus.
I admire your resolute. But your critical thinking is lacking.
You answer the questions with citations from the Bible. Sorry, but the Bible can be used to "explain" or justify anything.
Well crap, I'm pretty much out of luck then. I would say, though, that I've thought about this stuff pretty hard and critically.
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 30, 2016 - 04:21pm PT
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Ask A Christian. LOL Good name for a new route... Ha! We can put it next to "Dark Angels Have More Fun!"
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MisterE
Gym climber
Small Town with a Big Back Yard
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Mar 30, 2016 - 04:26pm PT
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This is a really great troll,
why would I ask a Christian about anything?
Each answer is different, depending on the person - and this is not even a person.
It's an avatar on a climbing forum.
Duh.
Good troll though, as I said.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Mar 30, 2016 - 04:49pm PT
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Ha! We can put it next to "Dark Angels Have More Fun!"
Or next to Modern Guilt. However, when I can get anyone to hike so far, I don't argue!
It is a good question, 'why ask one person?' As Daniel will have a different view than other Christians, or so called Christians. My beef with organized religion is that holy water will not burn through the people who wear crosses and are actually complete pieces of sh#t. If humans use religion to bring their best out, it is great. I know it helps people get over all sorts of addictions, deal with hardships of life, influences them to contribute positive actions to society, but some use it to deceive, belittle and hurt others emotionally and physically, which is not ok. I know Daniel, been in stressful situations with him and met his family. If all religious (no matter Christian or something else) people were as nice as him, there would likely not be war on earth and it would be a better place. So unfortunately what you will hear from Daniel does not extend onto other Christians by default. For some it is nothing but a label or a way to fit in the community they are a part of. All that one could do is start effecting the world with own actions, so I have to admit Daniel is the good Christian to have. But don't believe me, who knows what sort of crazy sh#t he does in his basement....
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Mar 30, 2016 - 05:00pm PT
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-Scientology
This may or may not be true, but I heard the higher ranked Scientologists believe there is a space ship coming to save those who believe in Scientology. The higher the rank, the quicker you will be saved and to advance your rank you donate more funds to the church of Scientology. Seems convenient. Pay us more money, you will be one of the first to survive! As with, come to the church on a Sunday, donate more money and we will forgive your sins so that you can go to heaven. When there is any financial or gain of power involved, I personally see some conflict as those two should not mix with spirituality. If there is a higher power, it should feel what is on my mind no matter if I talk to it within a man-made church, or on top of Mt. Whitney. Not trying to say I have any answers, but no matter what you follow, don't be a d#@&%e-bag, or at least recognize that you were and do your best to be as positive to those around as you can. We all have own hell to deal with and own skeletons in our closet, but it is important to face them in a civil matter without hurting those around...
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d-know
Trad climber
electric lady land
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Mar 30, 2016 - 05:52pm PT
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Miracles and divine intervention
defy logic and reason.
As such, used to govern
is absurd and dangerous.
Why?
Love and respect.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Mar 30, 2016 - 05:58pm PT
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What should we do with all the new Reagan ranches and millions of homeless folks?
should the Government be vindictive towards the poor?
and make it easier to fall into a pitiful despair because the jobs have disappeared due to conservative policies.
or can the Government provide the needed resources that are paid by our taxes,
the church will never be able to afford the needed funds for the millions that need help
Can you address this?
Should we cast them aside, or use the Government to provide a safety net?
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Fossil climber
Trad climber
Atlin, B. C.
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Mar 30, 2016 - 06:02pm PT
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Perhaps you can respond to this argument - it is often put forward but I have yet to hear a logical answer:
Is God omnipotent? Did he create everything?
Did he create the thousands of terrible diseases, birth defects, all the horrible maladies that humans are subject to whether they are believers or not, and whether or not they have had any hand in causing them?
Could he prevent non-anthropogenic natural disasters such as eruptions, tsunamis?
Why, if he is a “loving God”, does he allow humans to slaughter and torture each other as horribly as they have done throughout history?
IF he is indeed omnipotent and loves mankind, he could refuse to allow such suffering.
IF he is omnipotent but will not prevent it, then he is a monster almost beyond comprehension.
IF he can not prevent it then he is not omnipotent and is ineffectual.
Just askin’.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Mar 30, 2016 - 06:18pm PT
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Faith is not about reason, logic or evidence....things that promote discussion.
What a ridiculous generalization.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Mar 30, 2016 - 06:24pm PT
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Fossil, that's the famous "problem of evil," and you are vastly oversimplifying the nature of the problem. It is a philosophical question, so you'd have to get serious about the philosophical literature surrounding the question if you genuinely care to get clear about it.
There are at least two versions of it:
1) The "logical" version.
2) The "intuitive" or "practical" version.
For (1) see Alvin Plantinga, who is almost universally considered to have answered it.
For (2), I can tell you that I struggle with it myself. The intuitions driving the question are deep-seated, and even a wholly adequate logical response, as Plantinga has provided, does not "satisfy" the "sense" that "God could have done better" in some way.
But, to really discuss this, you'd have to at least be clear about which version of the problem you are talking about. Most people conflate the two, and it takes entirely different (almost unrelated) discussions to address the two (and other subtly different) versions.
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Gary
Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
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Mar 30, 2016 - 07:18pm PT
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Some people think that Pharoah hardened his own heart and God used it for his purposes.
Some people may think that, but my Bible specifically says that God did it.
Either way, would anyone have ever heard of the slaves that asked to leave and were given permission and then walked around in the desert?
So that's why all those innocent Egyptians had to die? Why not just announce to everyone on Earth via a burning bush?
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Mar 30, 2016 - 07:38pm PT
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Here's some fun(die) logic for us to chew on regarding bible inconsistencies reported on fstdt.com:
Here’s a critical point to grasp: if your trust was fully anchored in your Creators the way it’s supposed to be, then it wouldn’t matter that the Bible isn’t perfect. The degree to which you feel stressed over all of the errors we’re pointing out to you is the degree to which you’re still depending on the book to guide you in life. You can’t depend on a book. You need to be depending entirely on Yahweh, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. If you’re going to get far with Them, then every obstacle that is standing between you and total dependency on Them must be torn down. That’s why They have intentionally preserved a collection of records that are so full of wrong theology and bad examples. Our Gods knew we humans would try to turn the book into an idol that we could replace Them with, so They made sure to riddle the book with idiotic thinking and such glaring errors that we’d be forced to stop worshiping it if we ever started down the road of honest seeking, and we can’t get anywhere with our Gods until we are honest.
Anna Diehl , The Pursuit of God
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Mar 30, 2016 - 07:44pm PT
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The Cult Test
Questions 1 to 100
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult_q0.html
91. Use of the Cognitive Dissonance Technique.
• 92. Grandiose existence. Bombastic, Grandiose Claims.
• 93. Black And White Thinking
• 94. The use of heavy-duty mind control and rapid conversion techniques.
• 95. Threats of bodily harm or death to someone who leaves the group.
• 96. Threats of bodily harm or death to someone who criticizes the group.
• 97. Appropriation of all of the members' worldly wealth.
• 98. Making cult members work long hours for free.
• 99. Total immersion and total isolation.
• 100. Mass suicide.
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Fossil climber
Trad climber
Atlin, B. C.
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Mar 30, 2016 - 07:53pm PT
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Thanks, Madbolter - I'd still like to hear a response.
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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Mar 30, 2016 - 08:18pm PT
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Madbolter- Would you employ the same arguments for Zues or Thor?
Why would Religious persons argue, what is nothing more than mythology to many of us?
I personally construe rampant public promotion of personal faith to non believers as a fault line in your own beliefs.
Conversely, It's been proven that bacteria can survive space travel- we and all life, are believed to have evolved from a form of bacteria. Can atheist be so certain that a higher intelligence is not involved in our origin or "creation"? Do we not plant seeds?
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Norton
Social climber
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Mar 30, 2016 - 08:27pm PT
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Can atheist be so certain that a higher intelligence is not involved in our origin or "creation"?
I think the Atheist position is that "a higher intelligence" is not necessary to explain
our specie's existence, but that evolution over billions of years is much more plausible
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Mar 30, 2016 - 08:31pm PT
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My .02, not that anyone cares.
Religion is bunk. All major religions have the same moral code, translated differently according to local nuances.
Something connects all humans, but it's not one god. It's the desire to be safe, happy, and connected in some way to our fellow humans. We have sought a simple, single point solution to these desires because it gives us a neatly wrapped answer, despite the fact that the answer isn't simple at all. Humans are complex.
It's our brains that are our gods, not some unseen deity. Many simply fail to see this because they are blinded by a misplaced faith.
I eschew religion, but love my fellow humans.
Proselytizing is bad, and shouldn't be done.
Edit: Hey Dean, nice to see you posting. Don't go, your voice is missed here.
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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Mar 30, 2016 - 08:44pm PT
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Norton- agreed but agnostic works better for me.
Ian- I may have contributed to Madbolter's previous meltdown. I'm bored and hoping, at this very moment, he is furiously creating a wrathful, massive wall of text for cheap entertainment.
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