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ladyscarlett
Trad climber
SF Bay Area, California
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To be honest, I don't believe that I said that it was Men who were preventing me from being equal. As you're only interested in how Men are preventing me from being equal, I don't have a personal example. I am lucky. Most people prevent me from being equal to them because they are better than me, they don't like me, or I'm being mean - not specifically because I'm a woman.
There are A LOT of examples out in the world where men prevent women from being equal. All around the world, men keep women who want to read, work, drive, learn, live the way they want. Not because they are a particular religion, intelligence level, socio-economic level, but because they are women. I feel these are excellent examples where men are actively preventing women from being equal.
I'm not equal to a man, but I don't need to be. I'm lucky. I have the capability and relative freedom to do what I want to do. I can be who I want to be without being limited by my gender, only by my abilities. Not all women have that. That's why feminism still is.
As for you personally? "I never do anything that I'm aware of which denies any woman equal rights, and I never see any other men deny women equal rights..."
That's great! It probably means you're not part of the problem.
I don't know everything about you, so it could also mean you're within a strongly feminist community, can't recognize it, or 600 hundred other reasons. If you want one way to figure out how to recognize this behavior you're so fascinated by...try flipping the question. "What would be an example of someone denying a woman rights that I would expect for myself, because she's a woman?"
Cheers!
LS
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Lollie
Social climber
I'm Lolli.
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 9, 2016 - 05:19am PT
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You're right about physical strength, men are generally stronger. Problem is that that is a small part of a modern world. What about the rest?
Would you consider being a stay-at-home dad? (I know, a rather unfair question, I would never consider being a stay-at-home mom.) :-)Let's rephrase it. Your workmate decides he wants to, and declares he's leaving work to take care of his children, while his wife works. Would that feel ok?
I think the question is interesting.
"What would be an example of someone denying a woman rights that I would expect for myself, because she's a woman?"
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Reading the posts since I left last night, a memory was brought back to me.
Last winter in Joshua Tree, a young woman who I admired as a talented artisan who carried herself beautifully with grace and strength, came to me in a desperate state. What was going on isn't germane to this conversation, but it was causing her to let down the facade that I had only seen up until this time. I saw her vulnerability, as she ranted - oh yes, ranted, in an enraged spirit - as to how she had been used, abused, and put down, I had no words except "I'm sorry. What can I do to help?"
She didn't want my help; she just needed to get whatever was in her out, so she could think clearly as to her next actions. She railed on. When she said something like "Oh, everybody wants to be my friend....until it comes the time when I step out of their perceived role for me. And then, it's Oh no you don't, nigger."
She said that one word with such pain. Generations of it.
She continued on, describing real life and esoteric examples that her anger was based on. Some of it I understood, and some of it I didn't. And before long, I understood that, because I was white - of the "priviledged" population, that she probably believed I was guilty too. After all, we didnt know each other well. She said "You don't even know you're doing it(though that "you" was a general "you." and not directed at me specifically).
I wanted to scream "No! Not ME!" But I knew better. She never said she thought I was personally guilty, and for me to protest would be an invalidation of what she was saying.
There was/is NO way I can step into that woman's shoes. No matter how I attempt to intellectualize her argument, to suggest in ANY way, that her feelings were invalid would have been an insult. It also occurred to me that maybe I had never really *thought* about much of what she was saying, and that the little I had been doing while I simultaneously listened to her wasn't counting for much on that end. I endured her upset. I bolstered her as best she could, and I suggested the only help that I could provide to remedy her situation. She accepted it, and it helped in a very small way to relieve the immediate problem, but of course would do nothing - not one damned thing - about the greater song she had sung.
Since then, I have never thought "Oh no, no me!" when I read the upsets that black people in the US protest. From my ivory tower, I can't see clearly, no matter how good I believe my eyesight is.
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Lollie
Social climber
I'm Lolli.
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 9, 2016 - 07:08am PT
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Men do look better shirtless than women.
I'm a straight woman who doesn't find women sexually attractive. This does mean that in a strict sense, I'm not equal to any man. I am however just as capable to objectifying men as men are capable of objectifying women. I probably enjoy it more though :)
Interesting view. I can find other women beautiful, and sexually attractive. Like a piece of art. Which is objectifying, per definition.
I don't want to sleep with one, more than I would want to sleep with an object of art. I guess that makes me crooked then, not straight. :-)
That's probably also the reason I don't want to objectify men. I prefer to have sex with humans, not objects. One can expect perfection out of objects, but humans are never perfect. I like that. It's more exciting.
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dirtbag
climber
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As I get older, the term "pussy" in place of "coward" has bothered me more.
"Bitch" too. Use of that term is a complete double standard, and unfair. We definitely hold women to different standards; we don't call assertive working men "bitches," we give them raises. Occasionally I catch myself about to use it, out of habit. It's a nasty term.
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dirtbag
climber
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Since then, I have never thought "Oh no, no me!" when I read the upsets that black people in the US protest. From my ivory tower, I can't see clearly, no matter how good I believe my eyesight is.
I had a similar awakening about 15 years ago.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Anyone can be a victim.
Yes, one does not have to belong to a group to be disadvantaged, violated, and discounted. Results for equality will be limited as long as the battle is fought by segmented groups and not each individual. I will sign up for all lives matter.
Addressing gross disparity against groups of people as groups has had it's important voice and results. The substantial power to elicit core change lies with the rights and responsibilities of the individual. Isn't this the point, that nothing else should matter?
Jon C
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
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I LOVE playing with guys.
Uh oh. That nights hurt your traveling partner, Joanie's feelings. ;).
Susan
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Lollie
Social climber
I'm Lolli.
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 9, 2016 - 08:37am PT
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I read this:
Through the media, men are taught to be ultra-masculine by being desensitized, violent, and physically strong. Other forms of media that often portray the ultra-masculine figure are advertisements, specifically beer commercials. These forms encourage men to oppress other men if they do not fit the ideals of heteromasculinity.
My first spontaneous thought was: "Oh, poor things. What a lousy ground for becoming a good lover. "
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Mar 25, 2016 - 11:31am PT
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hey there say, lolli... send you an email... are you around...
please email, :)
thanks, hope all is well... :)
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Mar 25, 2016 - 01:44pm PT
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Ha! So weird. I thought about LoLo and look what turns UP!
Happy Easter, LoLo!
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Mar 25, 2016 - 02:08pm PT
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So this is what we have degenerated to?
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Mar 26, 2016 - 07:24pm PT
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I respect anyone who pulls their weight without demanding special treatment. It really sucks when someone goes into a job expecting to be descriminated against because of their race or gender or whatever. Makeing a big deal out of who or what you are is in itself discrimination against everyone else on the job. Do your job to the best of your abilitys, always lend a helping hand and be nice. I don't care if you are white , black, pink, purple, gay,straight, male, female or anything in between. I will respect the hell out of you if you pull your weight and do it with a smile. . Getting offended easily and makeing a big stink about how you better not be descriminated against you will be fighting an uphill battle from day one.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Mar 27, 2016 - 09:48am PT
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tradmanclimbs writes an honest response from the point of view of someone who had never experienced the persistence of discrimination. In his experience, one works hard and is rewarded in terms of the merit of that work. Work judged to be of lesser merit is not rewarded, so one has only to blame themselves for failing to provide the best work.
Of course, the work has to be judged, and who judges turns out to be a very important part of what is considered meritorious.
tradmanclimbs seems to attribute the failure of success among those who claim to be discriminated against as a self fulfilling prophecy, merely a perception that is the result of victim psychology appropriated by people who should just work harder.
When subjected to examination, however, the argument brings up many difficult issues to confront.
One might think that the sciences would be immune from these sorts of discriminating behavior because the assignment of merit would seem to be very clear. In fact, the MIT president Vest expressed a more nuanced position than tradmanclimbs in his belief that "contemporary gender discrimination within universities is part reality and part perception" but upon the results of "A Study on the Status of Women Faculty in Science at MIT" he goes on to reach the conclusion "...I now understand that reality is by far the greater part of the balance."
http://web.mit.edu/fnl/women/women.html
There are many remarkable things about this particular report, the admission of the MIT administration and their response, but perhaps the most notable among those is the fact that this all happened in 1999, which would seem very late in the history of the subject, in this case, gender discrimination.
As noted, the ratio of women to men on the MIT faculty in the school of science was about 10% and it did not vary over the 10 years considered in the study.
Now one could conclude that the women who were considered for faculty positions just didn't produce enough meritorious research, teaching and service accomplishments as the men. But no one believes that there is some marked superiority of men over women in terms of doing science. The only way you could conclude this is by the accomplishments, and assuming, as tradmanclimb does, that the playing field was level.
What the report shows, in fact was that the playing field was far from level, and that it was tipped in favor of men. The report did this in a markedly scientific manner, so much so that the results were accepted.
Here is a case where, women working hard, and not complaining but performing meritoriously, were not rewarded for that work.
Written in a broader context, the continued gender wage gap, women are rewarded at 79% of what men are for the same work, could be interpreted either as a fact that women aren't as good as men, or that the judgement of the value of their work determines that its worth is only 79% of men's.
While one might say that women should just shut up and work hard, and that this will eventually change, the fact of the matter is that, in 2016 we still have persistent inequity, after decades of recognition of that inequity.
The same can be said for other minorities.
So when people "pull their weight without without demanding special treatment" is one way to put it, one can not have an argument with the idea that they "pull their weight" and expect equal treatment. And when that equal treatment is not forthcoming, why would they not bring it to light?
The MIT women professors did, and in an admirable manner, and changed the way MIT did business.
The only ones who could be threatened by the "demand" of equal treatment are those who benefit from the current unequal state of affairs or are so utterly clueless that they are unaware that special treatment exists to their benefit.
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Mar 27, 2016 - 09:58am PT
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Thanks Ed. Sometimes I think that people assume others have judged them personally guilty when making a statement about general discrimination. We all KNOW there are people who are bigoted out there, but when someone mentions that, some people feel the finger is being pointed directly at them specifically.
As i wrote in response to Escoperto in another thread - the equal opportunity laws are not made so as to elevate a group who cannot compete on an equal field, but the reduce the number of those who refuse to accept and allow the equal field in and of itself.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Mar 27, 2016 - 12:03pm PT
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The only ones who could be threatened by the "demand" of equal treatment are those who benefit from the current unequal state of affairs or are so utterly clueless that they are unaware that special treatment exists to their benefit.
Well what does evolved life(evolution) show us within regards to "equal" treatment between the male-female relationship within a specific species?
Do you perceive ANY "equality" anywhere in Evolution?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Mar 27, 2016 - 12:11pm PT
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Female spotted hyenas are better "endowed" than you are, blue, probably doesn't have anything to do with anything...
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