If you hang the draws, it's a pinkpoint.

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Mark Force

Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
May 7, 2015 - 10:56am PT
Connecting pinkpoint to sport climbing = noob trying to make sense of the 5.12 and up world based on their 5.8 experience.

Hardly. Let's take this all the way.

Here is the entry on redpoint from Wikipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redpoint_(climbing)

In sport climbing, redpointing is free-climbing a route, while lead climbing, after having practiced the route beforehand (either by hangdogging or top roping).[1] Many climbers will frequently try to redpoint a route after having failed to on-sight or flash it, although occasionally a climber will forgo an onsight attempt if they suspect that the route is so difficult that an attempt would be pointless.[1] Redpointing differs from headpoint, in that it is exclusive to sport routes with protection equipment fixed into the rock at regular intervals.

The English term "redpoint" is derived from the German Rotpunkt (point of red) coined by Kurt Albert in the mid-1970s at Frankenjura. He would paint a red X on a fixed pin that he could avoid using for a foot- or handhold. Once he was able to free-climb the entire route, he would put a red dot at the base of the route. In many ways, this was the origin of the free climbing movement that led to the development of sport climbing ten years later.

Modern sport climbing ethics do not consider it a redpoint if one successfully climbs a route on toprope without using or weighting the gear or rope, though leading with preplaced quickdraws is typically allowed, even in international climbing competitions. Free-climbing while leading with preplaced quickdraws is sometimes referred to as a pinkpoint.[2]

Traditional climbers sometimes use a variant of the term, greenpoint, to describe leading a sport climb using only natural protection, i.e. without using preplaced bolts or pins.[3]

Here is the entry on pinkpoint from Wikipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinkpoint

In climbing, a pinkpoint is similar to a redpoint. To obtain or accomplish a pinkpoint, the climber must climb the route from the start, leading while clipping the rope into previously placed quickdraws as they go to the top, without falling or hanging on the rope. This differs from on-sighting a climb or flashing a climb in that a pinkpoint can be attempted as many times as needed, so long as it is climbed from the start without falling or hanging.

A pinkpoint differs from a redpoint in that quickdraws are already in place on the bolts along the climb. This style was first created for practical reasons. It proved very difficult to remove all runners on an overhanging route after every attempt so they were just left in place for the next climber. On bolted routes using pre-placed quickdraws is commonly accepted today, however, some climbers argue that a 'true' redpoint where quickdraws are placed while climbing represents a more difficult climb. For traditional routes protected with removable gear (nuts, friends...) only a real red-point (including the placement of gear, which often adds to the difficulty) is generally recognized as a successful ascent.

I'm so looking forward to climbing next week!

Used to be that if you couln't protect a climb with natural gear and you could top rope it you did just that. That was good enough and you didn't have dink around with all the rest of it.
Alpamayo

Trad climber
Davis, CA
May 7, 2015 - 10:58am PT
So in certain circumstances, a top rope is harder than a lead? Should that be celebrated?

And what about in those other circumstances where it is possible/easier?
Yes, on many steep sport climbs, a top rope would be both harder and less safe. Remember, the idea is to CLIMB as hard as you can while minimizing extraneous difficulty in relative safety. You can celebrate whatever style of climbing you like. You can even TR a climb if you like. Fortunately for your standards, even sport climbers still use the term "top-rope".
Norwegian

Trad climber
dancin on the tip of god's middle finger
May 7, 2015 - 11:00am PT
f*#k the point?

what the what's.
Buck Wilde

Boulder climber
Oregon
May 7, 2015 - 11:00am PT
Bob Murray did a TON of super hard boulders barefoot in the 80s.
Five15Factor2

climber
May 7, 2015 - 11:01am PT
Alpa, I'd like to mention that I fail to see where a TR would be harder than leading? Surely you don't mean it makes the actual climbing harder? Just that it makes the logistic of setting everything up harder correct?

Not disagreeing that it can certainly be more dangerous on steep or traversing routes.
blr

climber
May 7, 2015 - 11:04am PT
even sport climbers still use the term "top-rope"

And it's that inconsistency that I don't get. Why are they so against using one descriptive term and not the other? I can only come up with one reason.

It makes more sense to me to just keep and accept the use of the word pink-point.
Alpamayo

Trad climber
Davis, CA
May 7, 2015 - 11:07am PT
Alpa, I'd like to mention that I fail to see where a TR would be harder than leading? Surely you don't mean it makes the actual climbing harder? Just that it makes the logistic of setting everything up harder correct?

Not disagreeing that it can certainly be more dangerous on steep or traversing routes.

I've climbed plenty of steep routes where the rope above made climbing more difficult. The rope often tugs you and throws your balance/climbing off, and can get in the way of holds where a lead rope would not do so. And, in order to make such steep climbs safe for a TR, directional draws are often placed, which are harder IMO to unclip than they are to clip while leading.
Five15Factor2

climber
May 7, 2015 - 11:11am PT
OK that's true enough Alpa. Top roping is still lame tho (Disclaimer: The preceding statement was based on ego, not logic.)
blr

climber
May 7, 2015 - 11:14am PT
The preceding statement was based on ego, not logic

Haha, as long as we're all honest, I'm happy!
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
May 7, 2015 - 11:29am PT
he rope often tugs you and throws your balance/climbing off, and can get in the way of holds where a lead rope would not do so.

Not if the belayer gives you the proper amount of penalty slack.

;>)

John
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
May 7, 2015 - 11:39am PT
Isn't it fun to have an actual discussion about climbing however?


This has nothing to do with climbing. Climbing exists unchanged with or without this word. This is semantics, and goddamn do people love semantics.
Trashman

Trad climber
SLC
May 7, 2015 - 11:48am PT
And when it comes to semantdicks I vote all or nothing.

If you didn't place the bolts from the ground up without weighting the rope on your ascent, it's a pink point. The REAL climbers would have placed the bolts themselves as they went.
skitch

Gym climber
Bend Or
May 7, 2015 - 11:52am PT
Come on, can't you find a dumber thing to troll about???
Five15Factor2

climber
May 7, 2015 - 11:55am PT
Dumber than sport climbing? Bouldering?
RyanD

climber
May 7, 2015 - 12:03pm PT
F*#kMike the one day I decide to have a peek here and I get trolled by you of all ppl- maybe put your damn phone on airplane mode and go hang some draws on this fine day!

And maybe cut a hole in the floor of ur truck and use your feet to get around like the flinstones too while ur at it so that nobody can call u a cheater for getting to the crag not under your own power.

Get a SPORT project- not a slab or mixed climb, a steep bolt protected route that's harder than u ever climb- work it, fail, work it, fail, work it, fail, work it, fail, work it, fail, work it, fail. Work it- Send!!!

Then tell me what a dif the draws made in the whole process or if u even give a shet about pre hung draws anymore because you probably won't.


*back to hiding


johntp

Trad climber
socal
May 7, 2015 - 12:07pm PT
^^

Ryan, that cracked me up.
this just in

climber
Justin Ross from North Fork
May 7, 2015 - 12:10pm PT
Ryan has officially relapsed. Woohoo
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
May 7, 2015 - 12:54pm PT
Did Kurt ever clip a draw, pin or pre-placed gear on any of the routes in Frankenjura when he freed the route which then allowed him to paint the red dot at the base?
JLP

Social climber
The internet
May 7, 2015 - 01:22pm PT
The 5.8 army of never-has-beens and never-will-bees of Supertopo hashing out modern climbing ethics as practiced at the top of the sport. Fuking awesome - like watching the Special Olympics or something.

Mark Force

Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
May 7, 2015 - 01:32pm PT
JLP, What is being hashed out is the nomenclature for communicating styles of climbing for the purpose of clarity and honesty. Nobody is telling you how to climb and everybody gets to climb in any style they want. Ideally, we all climb in whatever style we find gives us the most satisfaction. Climbing style rules are after all random and essentially meaningless other than how they allow us to structure our experience of climbing to our satisfaction.

Ethics concern the effects of your actions on the environment.

You make a lot of assumptions, don't put much together that supports your position, and you make the mistaken assumption that certain climbers hold the rights or have more votes then the general climbing community as to how the climbing community conducts itself.

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