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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Sep 12, 2006 - 06:13pm PT
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They might not be placing them very often on a free lead (although it probably happens)...but sometimes they do get placed on an aid lead that preps the pitch for a subsequent free lead. Not saying this is how the all of the gear gets there on those otherwise non-clean pitches that go free, but it does happen some of the time.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 12, 2006 - 06:36pm PT
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Which enables clean climbers as well, unless removed subsequently which would render it NOT a clean ascent.
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 12, 2006 - 07:11pm PT
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Well we went down to the captain with the 200 watt bullhorn and told the guys who were beating on pins that a couple of old farts on Supertopo said you can't do that and to drop your hammers now.
A very nice stream of words came back, none of which can be repeated here. Hold your ears children.
Just kidding, hahaha
Tommorrow is another day, I do hope the sun will still come up in the east then ........
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Sep 12, 2006 - 07:25pm PT
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If you don't learn a little humility and gracefullness from climbing walls, you learn nothing at all.
JL
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 12, 2006 - 07:34pm PT
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Hi John,
apparently there's room to learn hubris as well,...
Werner,
you're just not using the proper incentive.
(see "Khyrgistan retreat option")
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Sep 12, 2006 - 08:21pm PT
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Ron,
perhaps it is time for the article. I vaguely remember the article. Constructive scarring I think it was?
But then I would have to ask SG and others (Deuce), whether they believe in the article or knott?
Just seems like consensus among climbers is a very difficult thing.
One thing many here seem to agree (at least so far) is that while hammering, a little concern could be made for the placement and cleaning it to hopefully allow a clean placement in the future.
Gary
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Sep 12, 2006 - 08:34pm PT
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I haven't read most of this thread, and for a few minutes didn't even know it was SO long! Damn the new "pages" addition to the forum! =)
"Falling is just part of the adventure" -- Steve, if you think this is an issue for Ammon, you clearly haven't ever even spoken to the man about climbing.
"It really only takes practice, solid testing technique and some sack to get wild up there." -- This is a little more than a "little heat"... Seems more like a little "talking shit"! You clearly have no clue when it comes to Ammon.
To say that Ammon's ascents are tied to ego is flat out ignorance. For someone with all of the things Ammon has going for him and the amazing ascents he has done, he could really be in a whole different spot as far as sponsors, etc. if he *did* have the huge ego you mistakenly elude to him having. He's actually a pretty humble guy who really doesn't do much, if anything, to promote himself.
Maybe you should check some facts or *at least* read a little about the person you're going to attack before doing so next time. At least try to get into the ball park with your wild throw at the batter. Sheesh!
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Sep 12, 2006 - 09:09pm PT
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Hey Werner, I think that you are right, but most of the time the arguement is won or lost with the listeners, not the participants.
Best, Roger
(Edited)
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Burt
Gym climber
hookers and blow baby...
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Sep 12, 2006 - 09:57pm PT
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The issue from more than one person that has meet Steve in person is the speed climbing thing. He has been VERY vocal about this style of climbing and this was his shot to nail Ammon to the cross. Let it out Steve, f*#k the nailing what do you really feel about the speed climbing? Then we will all see what the f*#k this is all about, a man watching something he had a great deal making pass him up with lightning speed. No body answered my question, how many clean ascents has the route seen? I witnessed the clean ascent when Ammon and Flyn Brian did space shot in like a 1 hour and some change. There are many things to "nail" Ammon about (you do have a radical life bro) but his climbing is not one of them.
Kurt "Burt" Arend
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addiroid
Big Wall climber
Long Beach, CA
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Sep 12, 2006 - 11:45pm PT
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I climbed Cosmic Trauma (and Swoop Gimp) about 2 weeks after Ammon and Chris's ascent (2 days each) and also nailed very softly in the same place. I also placed that #3 offset nut after the roof and then quickly placed another nut after that because it was a pretty crappy placement.
To nail under that roof is SOP there and as long as you do it softly it is the acceptable way.
Also, I bet he and Chris didn't haul a bag!! Hmmm, what causes more damage, placing one pin or hauling on that route??
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 12, 2006 - 11:47pm PT
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"softly"??
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todd-gordon
climber
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Sep 12, 2006 - 11:50pm PT
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Use a chock; save the rock. Use a pin; save your skin.
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john hansen
climber
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Sep 13, 2006 - 12:00am PT
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From Happy gilmore
'Just tap it in the hole' Sorry..
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Sep 13, 2006 - 12:06am PT
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add,
i was very disagreeable to mimi for bringing this up on other threads.
however, i think you condensed the whole discussion into this: "SOP"...i am pretty sure that is what SG and PR and others are tryin to say. the SOP must change.
i am not casting stones or disagreeing with you. hell, i aint even agreein with them but behind the keyboard it makes for interesting dicussions.
but i am pretty sure that mr SG's point is this, "if a route has gone clean, it should be climbed clean from here on out".
now some of you (i happen to think similarly bein a punter and all) are advocating that once a route goes clean, it may be to dangerous. being indepedant and all, we feel that being in the drivers seat (facin a long fall or retreat) WE are the best to make that decision. hell, you would not be a real climber if you didnt think that.
but, some of the ideas here need to be looked at closer. ok, continue nailing, make the placements eventually easier. or fix pro (hopefully decent) or provide more beta so that others can eventually climb the route the same way, clean or hammerless.
you see the quandary here? are we not out for adventure? all of the last three outcomes lessen the danger and adventure level. is this not what has happened to some of the routes already?
now, think about repeating he route clean. if these were rules, then that would mean more retreats, right? now not everyone plays the game the same way. it feels shitty when you retreat tryin to do the right thing and some lesser (in your eyes) climber makes it up by pounding. WTF? that dont feel good.
sorry for the rambling, but to me, identfying the outcomes and re-evaluating what we are after is useful in this discussion.
i do think that SG may come across like an a##hole (welcome to ST, must seem like home), but the points are salient.
i thought it was wrong to bring a single placement up but hell, it beats the rajmit threads....
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 13, 2006 - 12:08am PT
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Use an excuse and side step a noose??
I'll respond to the last when I'm sober,...
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Sep 13, 2006 - 12:26am PT
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ron, what a f&&&in lame ass excuse LOL.
take care.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 13, 2006 - 12:33am PT
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Hey,
don't razz me.
I think we might be on the same side.
(and that the thread title might be a bit over the top)
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Sep 13, 2006 - 12:51am PT
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Damn!
I thought this thread was gonna be about a card game at Ammon's house!
I'm sure if Ammon would have known that all he had to do was find a blind placement and spend 3 hours making it work, he would have done that instead.
Where's the S. Grossman SuperDuperTopo®™™ when you need it?
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Mimi
climber
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Sep 13, 2006 - 01:53am PT
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Is it also SOP to keep on "softly" nailing this little hole until the rating changes?
Whoever gave the beta to Ammon about this so-called SOP, what's your story?
How often do you decide to ignore the efforts of others and nail when it suits you and show zero foresight? How about doing a route that is within your limits in the first place in order to climb in good style and not lower the bar? Once a route's gone clean, can't you see fit to leave it alone?
Maybe the words "good style" and "ethics" turn some of you off because you think they're corny or something. You have to be aware that you're on a slippery slope.
Some of you continue to fuss about personal attacks, etc. Maybe if the people getting questioned weren't beating their chest in public about their actions, they wouldn't get asked in public about them.
All of you guys/gals that condone this bullsh#t appear to be so confused and lacking in any understanding about what clean climbing advocates stand for. The concerns have been spelled out clearly. If you simply can't be bothered to see beyond your own needs and consider your impact, it's a real shame. You know damned well this isn't about one f#king pin placement. Why it is that your judgement doesn't place any value on fairness and protecting our resources are beyond me. Are you really so blind or are you really that myopic?
And this nonsense about these advocates, including me, being high-and-mighty, elitist, pooh-don't-stink, etc. is really transparent and disingenuous. Get real.
Peace, love, and a frosty enema of committment to you all,
Mimi
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Sep 13, 2006 - 02:07am PT
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I'm sure it's been said before, possibly in this very thread... If the style or ethic you're trying to push is that "once a climb goes clean it chould go clean from then on", then logic would say that this would carry over to the free climbing aspect of these same routes. Once it's gone all free, it should go *only* free after that, right? After all, there are "clean" techniques, such as cam hooking that harm the rock as well. Maybe no one continues the logic because no one here is capable of doing the routes we're discussing free. I suppose if people who have and can do them free were here pushing this "ethic" then they'd also be as#@&%es and elitist too, right?
Pot, meet kettle.
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