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dirtbag
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 22, 2014 - 07:12am PT
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Bookie is one pissed off dude.
He's mad as hell and he ain't gonna take it no more!
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Oct 22, 2014 - 09:55am PT
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So, Ron, did you send that guy $50? He'll give you the secret to success!
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TradEddie
Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
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Oct 22, 2014 - 10:48am PT
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That proves too much. I doubt that a law requiring a for-profit newspaper to publish any advertisement submitted with payment would pass Constituttional muster under the First Amendment, any more than the Couer D'Alene ordinance and threatened enforcement will. Explicit First Amendment freedoms trump the general ability of government to regulate business.
More importantly, the Constitution does not disappear when one engages in activity for pay. I doubt that any serious Constitutional scholar would find a law Constitutional that says, for example, that no practicing Muslim can practice medicine, sell cars, or engage in any other "public accommmodation." While too many on the far right and far left think that the First Amendment applies only to those with whom they agree, the Constitutional jusirsprudence still says otherwise.
Your usually excellent analytical skills seem to depart when you discuss religion. Your analogy makes no sense.
That chapel is not a church, it is not a religion, it has no congregation and no associated religious entity, it performs civil wedding ceremonies which include the word "God", and is run by people with a religions opposition to gay marriage. The bible explicitly prohibits inter-racial marriage too, suppose those owners refused to perform an inter-racial marriage?
There are other rights involved here, this is not government regulation of business, or government regulation of religion, this is government ensuring equal protection under the law.
TE
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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Oct 22, 2014 - 11:26am PT
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obumbly is obviously steering us to the next big collapse.
ron you must really want these libs to leave supertopo!!!!
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Oct 22, 2014 - 12:59pm PT
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Trad Eddie, I was responding to the argument that the rights of an individual engaging in an activity for profit differ significantly from those of an individual engaging in an activity not for profit. I don't find that distinction nearly as compelling, on an individual level, as Tvash apparently does.
I agree that the real issue here is balancing the right to equal protection under the Fourteenth Amendment with the rights to freedom of expression and to free exercise of religion under the First and Fourteenth Amendments.
Public accomomodation laws form an essential part of equal protection, but not without limits. I was unaware of any public accommodation case or law requiring, for example, a commercial artist to depict something contrary to that artist's beliefs until the Colorado wedding cake case, whose outcome remains to be seen.
In the case of The Hitching Post, I find the issue closer. If the proprietors are acting solely as persons licensed to officiate at civil wedding ceremonies, the case becomes overwhelmingly strong for Couer D'Alene. If they are being forced to act as pastors, on the other hand, that would be a clear First Amendment violation. No case, of which I am aware, has ever required someone to practice in a specific way that their religion holds to be obnoxious.
Note, however, that the issue doesn't hinge on profit or not-for-profit. Rather, it hinges on who the business purports to accommodate, and what is required in that accommodation. The Couer D'Alene ordinance assumes that officiating at a civil wedding ceremony is no more an expression of personal approval or disapproval whether the officiant is a pastor or the County Clerk. If, in contrast, The Hitching Post requires that any service performed adhere to specific religious guidelines, and the pastor/proprietors take appropriate measures to insure that adherence, we have a situation much closer to a regious rite than a public accommodation.
In a way, it reminds me of what lawyers are taught in professional responsibility classes, namely that "A lawyer is not a bus." This means that a lawyer is not required to take the case of everyone who comes seeking his or her services. Rather, a lawyer is free to decline a clase that the lawyer feels lacks merit, is unfair or opressive, or even one where the lawyer feels he can't get along with the client. The law limits the right only to the extent that lawyers may not refuse a representation of the disadvantaged or the oppressed solely for personal reasons that do not affect professional performance.
All of the pastors I know act the same way regarding officiating at a wedding. They reserve the right to decline to officiate if they believe doing so violates the principles of their religion, and insist on several counseling sessions with the would-be spice to make sure that the marriage is one that would be appropriate. Admittedly, though, all of those pastors only officiate as a representative of a church. If the Hitching Post will marry any heterosexual couple that is not already married to someone else, in the name of the State of Idaho rather than in the name of God, then I don't see the pastors acting as pastors. If they purport to marry in the name of God, I think Couer D'Alene has a problem.
John
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crankster
Trad climber
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Oct 22, 2014 - 01:17pm PT
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Oct 22, 2014 - 08:56am PT
reading the secret passing of capitol gains control this am,, obumbly is obviously steering us to the next big collapse.
Ignore what you see! Ignore the facts! Listen to rightwing media! Be stupid!
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TradEddie
Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
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Oct 22, 2014 - 01:40pm PT
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Trad Eddie, I was responding to the argument that the rights of an individual engaging in an activity for profit differ significantly from those of an individual engaging in an activity not for profit.
I agree that as a less contentious example, a catholic priest should not be 'forced' to marry a divorcee, but this case is different enough that such a comparison is not valid, and those who see it in the same light are falling for the right-wing spin intended by the original article. There appears to be no religious organization associated with this wedding chapel, if there was, it would fall under the religious exemption, so if the owners have such a sincere objection to gay marriage, they can close the doors, I'm not aware of any constitutional right to perform civil wedding ceremonies.
TE
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Oct 22, 2014 - 01:58pm PT
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From your last comment, TE, we analyze this case the same way. You just do it more succinctly.
john
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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Oct 22, 2014 - 03:48pm PT
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calling a g-town law school student who wants other people to pay for her to have safe sex a slut is a moral outrage
 because the religious keep reminding me that they need to be told...
No g-town law student exists who wants other people to pay for her to have safe sex....
before you respond, please look back at what you claim to know about what you are writing... you may be misrepresenting some of the facts which may skew a big portion of your argument..
Sketch -
Interesting... I find the last 9 words in this piece to be telling when I ask what my republican lead congress has done for me lately?
"Let us accept our own responsibility for the future"
And then I'm reminded that the republican party is worthless and do not have the American people in their minds when committing their acts of congress...
The question I have is... once the election happens and another democrat or independent candidate wins... who is going to own the future this congress has doomed us to?
I say us... as I'm going to be here when this bill comes due!!!
the republlicans constantly ducking responsibility for their actions... in church... in the ballot box... in public office.... in the lines in the grocers market.....
Book
evuhl kochs strike again; this time they're providing good lawyers to poor people...what evuhl will they do next? build another hospital?
all good deeds done by these ultra rich, ultra snob, f*#k-sticks have 0 integrity and the environment is included in the big beautiful pictures painted in the news by the ultra rich, ultra snob, f*#k-stick media... hell... its even showing up in climbing forum threads too...
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dirtbag
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 22, 2014 - 04:54pm PT
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Scooch is an authority on whining.
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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Oct 22, 2014 - 05:13pm PT
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Jingy - you're too much... using a quote on personal responsibility as a soapbox for whining about your own victimhood.
funny you mention being a victim....
I can charactorize this congress as waging a war of sloth on the American people...
I, and the future generations, we are the victims of congress's inactivity...
But you are right.... I am not a victim...
I'm an American... and Americans are never victims, they are always better than everyone else...
Is that better? Would you approve that message?
Rewrite it all you want... We are all victims of this inept republican lead congress
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Oct 23, 2014 - 07:03am PT
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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Oct 23, 2014 - 09:17am PT
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Watching this mornings Democracy Now programing reminds me of why republicans are wrong about everything...
[Click to View YouTube Video]
There was a discussion on the 4 Blackwater contractors who were found guilty in their trial(s)
These guys... were guilty.
One paper's write up....
Another paper's story
And another paper's story
yet... another
I say they were guilty of being rich arrogant pricks who happened into a job that required them to behave like animals, barbarians, and criminals... Yet not a word will be uttered about maybe getting rid of the notion that America can just run around at will and indiscriminately kill people of other nations.
All I have to go by, for the private army's to exist, is their word that they are doing good.
Just remember, freedom is just a name change away when you are a corrupt criminal organization with lawyers on your payroll... and you are American... so no one will question you... you may do as you please.
Republicans got us into that war. Republicans loosened the rules on everything from your drinking water to how to engage with the enemy on a battlefield and the interrogation room.
Yes, democratic statesmen were complicit in all of it... but what else could they have been at the time... "You are either with us or against us" means you sit the f*#k down and shut the f*#k up.... when republicans are in town...
But these should be the times when we ask the most questions or out elected officials, in my opinion...
But of course, this will never happen... the questions will never come. Those who have what they need are not going to upset the applecart, and those who do not have have little choice in the matter.
other news reports on the trials outcome.. and more on blackwater background:
[Click to View YouTube Video]
[Click to View YouTube Video]
The lies of the right wing government players
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Braunini
Big Wall climber
cupertino
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Oct 23, 2014 - 01:32pm PT
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lol sweet politard tears
best thing Dr. F ever did
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Norton
Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
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Oct 26, 2014 - 05:37pm PT
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"having sex with other people"
Oh my Booky, what Liberalism Hath Wrought
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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Oct 28, 2014 - 10:16am PT
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Oct 28, 2014 - 09:32am PT
But... but... but...
President Obama is one of the good guys.
Remember "Hope and Change"?
Remember "We're the most transparent and ethical administration in US history"?
He promised.
I do remember....
Boy, we were some really patriotic, and proud Americans back then... We had such high hopes...
It's almost as though the right wing only wants to be the story tellers... They never want to sit back and listen... Maybe offer constructive suggestions...
What a time it was. To be free of all the nasty terrorist threats... Those are the good old days I long for.....
Moreover Edit:
http://blogs.rollcall.com/hill-navigator/congress-averaging-70-hour-work-week/?dcz=thoughtleader
Who runs congress now?
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