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PAUL SOUZA
Trad climber
Central Valley, CA
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Aug 13, 2014 - 01:47pm PT
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We're messed up because we're born with sinful nature,
That right there, is what perpetuates depression in some of the clients I have had in therapy.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Aug 13, 2014 - 01:49pm PT
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Christ, if he existed at all, and the Bible are completely irrelevant to me. I don't live 2000 years ago.
What concerns me are the actions of people today.
Finding sin in naturally occurring, harmless human traits, like sexuality, is the very core of the problem. You request to 'not judge' comes with tragic irony here. Sexuality - a conduit for true intimacy and human connection, is a gift, not a sin.
Finding sin in genetic disease - such as alcoholism, represents yet another avoidable tragedy perpetuated by Christianity. The AMA labeled alcoholism as a disease more than 30 years ago, but then, science isn't everyone's cup of tea.
Life is hard enough, and people are hard enough on each other. That fundamentalists Christians find problems where there are none, the 'sinfulness of being gay' being a glaring example, makes matters so much worse - both for people within the flock and most certainly for the rest of us who choose not to subscribe. Yet our entire nation is constantly bombarded by Christian attempts to force their religion on the rest of us through bigoted public policy - such as denying a whopping 6 to 8% of the population the right to marry the person they love. Given that such a relationship is so fundamental to happiness, I can't help but question the oft repeated line that fundamentalist Christianity is a religion of love. That's not any kind of love I recognize as such.
Furthermore, Christians invariably shift the blame for such bigotry elsewhere - to a god who requires people to f*#k only the opposite sex (really God?), and to the LGB community who 'choose to sin'.
Everyone chooses a life philosophy which suits them. One is solely responsible for that choice. Those how subscribe to or accept bigotry choose a doctrine which legitimizes bigotry. The only blame for such immoral behavior lies with the individual, not God, not the anonymous authors of the Bible, and certainly not with the millions of innocents who are guilty of simply being born with the sexuality they were born with.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Aug 13, 2014 - 01:54pm PT
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Tvash,
I suppose you support overturning the laws prohibiting plural marriage.
The LBGT community certainly doesn't.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Aug 13, 2014 - 02:01pm PT
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"Tvash,
I suppose you support overturning the laws prohibiting plural marriage.
The LBGT community certainly doesn't."
This is your second attempt to ascribe a bullshit opinion to me. It's a common innernut trick, it's tired, and this will be my last reply to you.
Feel free to go nuts.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Aug 13, 2014 - 02:04pm PT
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I have all the wives I need, Mr Kos. Zero. Zero current, and zero ex.
But people are locked up in prison right now for doing nothing more than marrying two people.
If anyone was locked up for same sex marriage, I'm unaware of it.
I'm left to assume Tvash is OK with locking up people who don't ascribe to his idea of a proper marriage. Another point of agreement there with the Born Agains.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Aug 13, 2014 - 02:07pm PT
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We're called to love everyone, no ifs ands or buts.
Does that mean you love your ISIS brothers too?
Love is love, no ifs ands or buts, right?
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Aug 13, 2014 - 02:08pm PT
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cat t said,
While I do not/cannot believe in a higher power, I think I also feel that "peace beyond understanding" you describe and frequently wish I could "share the stoke," as you phrased it. I just don't know how practical or easy it is to actually share that feeling...
i would question what "peace" you understand? i can sincerely relate to yours about nature, it is partly what brought me to Christ. But the peace beyond understanding that Christ brings can only come through the revelation and understanding that Christ died to boer my sins, and that He has Planned the universe and His Plan continues today. You've said that you find joy in Nature. Nature IS awesome and beautiful on the surface, but just below it is lying and murderous. Take the Anglerfish as an example, he deceits then eats his prey. We are obligely OK with that and concur "That's Nature". But what of the other species that don't need to kill another animal to sustain life? They've proven that there is no need to kill to live.. My round about point being, WE are animals in Nature and we are naturally inclined to act as though. Difference being, we have been endowed by the Creator with the ability to question and to decide. Another words, free-will. When we decide against our own conscious, this is the "sin" i was referring to. When we decide against our Nature, this is free-will. These are not specifically, but in a nutshell.
One example being correlated to LIMPINGCRAB'S reference. Which was a good choice! Don't these things that Jesus ask's us to do seem to go against our Nature? Offer food and drink to our enemys, and to even love our enemies? This flies in the face of Natures Evolution.
To ME, Prescribing to the "higher power" is an understanding that Man and Nature has flaws, and through the sacrifice of Jesus and the Love of God they are blotted out!!
Peace be with you!
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Aug 13, 2014 - 02:11pm PT
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Tvash,
Like several others, I'm reluctant to debate you on a thread designed to offer help to those who seek it. And, like Micronut, work calls. For that reason, I'm left with just enough time for a very brief reponse. I, like Micronut, am all-in. I converted to Christianity in my mid-20's, about two years after graduating from Berkeley with double majors in math and economics, and about a month before going back to school for graduate and professinoal education.
Christianity is not a set of rules, nor is it a true-false test. It is a relationship with the God of the universe. It requires that we Christians recognize that our imperfection is incompatible with God's perfection, but that Jesus Christ paid the penalty of our imperfection, so that we can restore our right (and rightful) relationship with God. We rely not on our own righteousness, but on Christ's righteousness, because humanity is incapable of the required perfection.
This position obviously offends the self-satisfied, and Jesus's claim to exclusivity ("I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me") offends those who want universalism. Christianity ultimately rests on a rather difficult belief, viz. that God created humanity, knowing that we would rebel, knowing that God the Son would need to come as a human being to be mocked, rejected, tortured, humiliated and killed to redeem us, and went ahead and created us anyway. As the hymn says, "What wondrous love is this?"
If you choose to live in ignorance of Jesus Christ, I can't stop you. I so chose, and I'm no smarter now than I was then when I believed differently. I guess that's the part that we Christians tend to convey so poorly. We aren't smarter, more righteous, or more worthy than anyone else. We're just accepting of an impossibly gracious gift.
John
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Aug 13, 2014 - 02:12pm PT
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F*#k me, there are anglerfish in Hell?
I need to stop sinning ASAP.
The choppers on those things!
Plus, DO NOT LEND THEM MONEY.
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Aug 13, 2014 - 02:16pm PT
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We're messed up because we're born with sinful nature,
That right there, is what perpetuates depression in some of the clients I have had in therapy.
Sorry, I use phrases thinking everyone interprets them the same way I do. Some people mistake "sinful nature" for a reason to hate themselves and think they're bad. I just mean it as an definition for our natural tendencies to be selfish. You don't have to teach a child to take what they want.
Tvash: I, and a lot of people who have a relationship with Jesus, don't stress about what is or is not made legal. Nobody can legislate anything eternal, the love for people and God.
I'd love to hear an explanation of the difference between a "true" Christian vs a "moderate" one, etc... In general I think people mean those who do or do not take the bible literally and as a whole.
Does that mean you love your ISIS brothers too?
Love is love, no ifs ands or buts, right? Yup. Sure do hate what they're doing though.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Aug 13, 2014 - 02:18pm PT
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The concept of sin is shat out from the bowels of the human construct of perfection, which, of course, is anything a subjective observer deems it to be.
That there can be an absolute definition of perfection makes no sense at all.
The Bible doesn't take itself literally. Certain gospels, all written anonymously long after Christ's supposed date of death, were suppressed, others emphasized, and nearly two millennia of translation after translation and rigorous re-interpretation translated to thousands of differing doctrines then re-interpreted in the minds of hundreds of millions of various practitioners have rendered any idea of literalism patently nonsensical.
The common theme here is assigning absolutism to what is, by definition, subjective.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Aug 13, 2014 - 02:24pm PT
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Sure do hate what they're doing though.
I'm impressed. I suppose you've seen the graphic pictures of cutting women's throats and such.
I can't love them for that. I won't re-post the pictures however.
I hate what they're doing too. Enough to wish the fires of hell brought down on them by the angels of the US Air Force. The more and the sooner the better.
I understand the love everyone concept, but I can't pull it off. Sorry.
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micronut
Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 13, 2014 - 02:26pm PT
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Yeah Paul, That's the crux of the whole route right there.
I (along with all true Christians) believe we are born innately sinful, selfish, broken, in need of restoration.
Most people I know think man is born innately good. Despite a proclivity toward a selfish end, lying, cheating, stealing, depression, fighting, murder, torture, abuse, sadness, loneliness self serving and ego to name a few. Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, thoughtfulness, gentleness and self control seem to be so much work and often out of reach for a mankind that would supposedly be "born good." Always seemed a hard sell to say we are born innately good.
And therein lies the difference.
These are the character of a real Christian.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Aug 13, 2014 - 02:28pm PT
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Most people i know do not believe man is born good nor evil. That is a Christian's view of the world.
We believe man is born as a baby.
Whether one considers a baby broken, sinful or selfish is a judgement call.
We can all agree they're born hungry and cranky however.
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cintune
climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
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Aug 13, 2014 - 02:29pm PT
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Aug 13, 2014 - 02:32pm PT
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He needs to hang out with a better crowd of babies.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Aug 13, 2014 - 02:36pm PT
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Well, this has devolved into the typical Christian Drivel versus Stuff that Actually That Has a Prayer of Making Even a Little Sense, so onward to other pursuits...
My takeaway here was the immorality of anglerfish.
I mean, who knew?
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cat t.
Sport climber
CA
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Aug 13, 2014 - 02:38pm PT
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would question what "peace" you understand? ... Nature IS awesome and beautiful on the surface, but just below it is lying and murderous. Take the Anglerfish as an example, he deceits then eats his prey.
Oh holy thread-drift! I know this has nothing to do with depression or religion on the surface, sorry, but I can honestly say that I find peace in what you call the "lying and murderous" nature of Nature. When I'm feeling down and out and bemoaning the woes of life, and I think "male anglerfish have to literally dissolve and fuse their bodies to a female to survive??" or "there are fungal, worm, and bacterial parasites that mind-control their prey so it purposefully gets eaten??" or "we have two very close animal relatives that are socially polar opposites--one species is constantly at war (common chimp), and the other just cuddles away all conflict (bonobo)??" it makes me feel a whole lot better about the struggles of human life. There are so many unimaginably strange animal behaviors out there; it makes me realize how arbitrary our own definitions of culture and behavior are, and yes, I find this very comforting and peaceful.
F*#k me, there are anglerfish in Hell?
I need to stop sinning ASAP.
Tvash, this gave me a solid chuckle.
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Aug 13, 2014 - 02:46pm PT
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Maybe I should have used the word "accurate" instead of literal. Anyway, I'm not sure what the definition is either.
Back to the OP, I can honestly say that believing I'm going through life with Jesus and that we're actually headed somewhere has got me out of hard times. Maybe I'm weak and like my imaginary friend, but I don't thin so.
I am impressed that people can live believing there is no spirituality and that atoms and electricity is the extent of it. I just can't imagine that being a fulfilling way to live, but who knows, I haven't tried. Seems depressing.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Aug 13, 2014 - 02:59pm PT
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To the OP, thanks for that man. Your heart precedes you, as it is huge.
I don't care what religion anyone prescribes to, or if they eschew religion entirely. It all boils down to compassion, and you have that in spades, as far as I can tell. If I'm in FresYes, I'm going to hit you up. Positivity rules, and the world needs more of it. Thanks!
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