Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Rudbud
Gym climber
Grover Beach, CA
|
|
|
Jun 20, 2014 - 07:35pm PT
|
Not very nice!
Actually super stoked, Im glad Donini said it, it holds a lot of value.
Thanks Donini!
|
|
clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
|
|
|
Jun 20, 2014 - 07:53pm PT
|
I want you to want me, I need you to need me...
I am going to do some of the best climbing this planet has ever seen with the greatest climbers that exist. You can put all your money on it.
|
|
mike m
Trad climber
black hills
|
|
|
Jun 20, 2014 - 08:51pm PT
|
No debate if the premise has already been decided.
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Jun 21, 2014 - 12:06am PT
|
did you object to the rap route down Royal Arches?
when I look at the Royal Arches rap route the first thing I see is a convenience. It allows climbers to avoid walking down the North Dome Gully.
I actually don't think it is much faster (it is slower actually), and it is probably not safer.
Like a lot of things we do, we make climbing convenient... rap routes, belay anchors, etc.
But for the most part these aren't a consideration of doing a first ascent, these are considerations regarding subsequent ascents.
Installing sport routes is largely a consideration of subsequent routes, not first ascents. We justify doing a sport route in less than best style because the primary intention is to put in good sport routes for others to climb.
The routes can be very good climbing to those who come to climb them, certainly employing less than best style on the first ascent helps insure that the routes are installed well.
But the first ascent is not done in best style.
One might ask, "who cares?" but once again, if sport routes could be put in using "best style" then should they go in using other styles?
I think that defining "climbing" takes us off topic, and I don't actually think there is much of an issue. The "best style" definition I proposed in the OP works for big mountains, small mountains, boulders, etc...
we don't chip boulder problems when we do those problems in "best style"
we don't use aid
we don't rap and pre inspect
we might not send the problem the first time, so we do rehearse moves on our way to the send... compared to someone flashing the problem on sight, first ascent... that's better style than projecting the problem no question about it.
it is still a proud send, just not in the best style possible.
If I go to climb a big mountain I still can apply the definition. In some ways it is what super alpinism is all about. That is best style. Sieging a peak isn't best style, fixing and carrying loads, etc, isn't best style. Using aid isn't best style.
Interestingly, using ice tools is probably within the realm of best style...
|
|
guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
|
|
|
Jun 21, 2014 - 12:24am PT
|
Vitality seems to have described it best to moi in a simple but concise paragraph:
To me the best style would be hiking in somewhere far from the road, spent a night below a giant rock face that makes me want to sh#t myself, than waking up and picking a line up the middle. Climbing at my limit for majority of the day, doing it on gear (just because putting in bolts is a lot of work and requires extra gear), no falls/no hangs/no aid, topping out, getting to the top with someone I enjoy climbing with, getting back to camp with just enough time to have an awesome dinner, reflecting on experience and passing the f*#k out after a jug of hot chocolate. That is what I would like the most. I would have the most fun this way.
|
|
Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
|
|
|
Jun 21, 2014 - 12:34am PT
|
Depends whether the style judges prefer difficulty or minimal impact to be the determining factor...
... egos tend to drive FA parties towards the local style judges preferences.
|
|
Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
|
|
|
Jun 21, 2014 - 12:48am PT
|
I do alot of FAs.......in all sorts of different styles;...people "discuss" (argue over ) FA style;...I am not too concerned at this point/time in my life......as I get older........I am just happy to wake up each day, hug my wife and children, not be dead or have colon cancer, not be in jail or in a wheel chair, or kidnapped in Iraq or Columbia....... and be able to still get out there and get some exercise at the crags........It's different for seniors than it is for youngsters......At least it is for me anyways.........I appreciate the fact that I get to do FAs PERIOD...in ANY style........I truly appreciate that........each time I do a new route ...I say...."Cool;...there goes another one;.....I am amazed!".....I am appreciative and thankful.......I know I am a lucky sucka....
|
|
tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
|
|
|
Jun 21, 2014 - 04:22am PT
|
OOOpsi. I think I am altering the rock a bit here.. At least i am on lead;)
|
|
tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
|
|
|
Jun 21, 2014 - 04:25am PT
|
The most inportant factor of all in an FA is that you either create an amazeing climb that folks who come after you can enjoy or you leave no trace. the absolute worst is to take a great line, f*#k it all up and then not let anyone fix it.
|
|
Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
|
|
|
Jun 21, 2014 - 07:16am PT
|
Thanks, X15X15;.....I'm on it.........
|
|
clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
|
|
|
Jun 21, 2014 - 07:19am PT
|
Your 'best style' is not best.
DMT, Please share an example of the "best" that is not the same "best style" that Ed is stuck on(he is not the only one).
Intermission, there are food and drinks in the lobby.
|
|
clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
|
|
|
Jun 21, 2014 - 07:32am PT
|
Give a description of a redpoint FA? Play by play as you see it.
|
|
clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
|
|
|
Jun 21, 2014 - 07:46am PT
|
Thankyou.
|
|
drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
|
|
|
Jun 21, 2014 - 07:57am PT
|
Oh snap!!!
|
|
Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
|
|
|
Jun 21, 2014 - 08:25am PT
|
You can't reason with purists, they are like the Taliban. This is dead horse that has been beaten a thousand times over.
|
|
StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
|
|
|
Jun 21, 2014 - 08:49am PT
|
Difference of opinion is what makes the world an interesting place. If all agreed all the time we would be bored to tears.
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Jun 21, 2014 - 08:57am PT
|
DMT, Bob and others have some worry that my definition of "best style" is some religious dogma to force people to climb first ascents in some particular manner.
I'm not advocating that at all.
What I am saying is that we can all agree that a first ascent put up in that style is a good first ascent. In some ways the description of that style of first ascent is constructed to obtain that consensus.
That construction is misconstrued as a religious doctrine, which is absurd. I've given plenty of examples where other considerations come into play in a first ascent that happens not in the "best style." You can interpret that as a negative comment, but that is not what I intend at all.
My intention is simply that having constructed a definition of style we would all agree with for a first ascent, how do we justify other styles? Its a question, and an important one for planning first ascents.
I would ask DMT what climb, put up in the "best style" as described in the OP, would he object to the first ascent style?
It's a simple question, really. Would you object to a climb put up in that style because the possibility existed to red(pink)-point it? Maybe I'm confused.
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Jun 21, 2014 - 09:27am PT
|
It seems to me we are all confused.
I have argued if we merely give up the idea of "first ascent" while also preserving the environment for ourselves and others
there is no problem.
What is with the "first ascent" concept? Possibly it is based upon Whymper's trip up the matterhorn. Whymper intended that trip be translated as "Look at me! I am a Brit!" Or so some historians tell us.
I would suggest it could also be translated as "Look at me! I am one of those Brits with the free time made available to us by our habit of robbing the people in our colonies."
There is an alternative to the invoking of sheer personal ability/merit.
For example, one very difficult FA was done in the Gunks years ago because the leader
got lost.
That event led me to formulate Stannard's 53'rd law.
Without humor, all humans would be insane.
Another example describing the modern paradigm. Arguably the most revolutionary accomplishment anyone could obtain today is the discovery of the "First supersymmetric particle."
The paper announcing that discovery will have
600 authors listed.
And rightly so.
What do we conclude from all of this?
We climbers have our eyes fixed immovably upon
the past.
Edit:
I stand corrected. Tx.
Edit2:
When you think about it with age people become less interested in first ascents. It's intriguing to think that if we just hurried that change along a bit, all kinds of problems would disappear.
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Jun 21, 2014 - 09:42am PT
|
Arguably the most revolutionary accomplishment anyone could obtain today is the discovery of the "First supersymmetric particle."
actually it is the BICEP result, though super symmetry would be up there... BICEP is a grand unification result, which trumps supersymmetry
but point taken... however there are a lot of problems in not declaring routes, and almost all of them are environmental
if everyone that went up the Royal Arches route came down the North Dome Gully, then that whole area would be a mess and a formal trail would have to be put in to support the traffic. In some ways the existence of the rap route reduces the climber impact.
standardizing approaches to and descents from climbs greatly reduces impacts, and can be engineered to avoid sensitive plant species
and then describing a route specifies the installed hardware on that route, so that no additional equipment need be installed
whatever the nature of "first ascent" evolved from, in our highly populated climbing environments we find it necessary and important to systematize route descriptions
|
|
clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
|
|
|
Jun 21, 2014 - 09:44am PT
|
I would suggest it could also be translated as "Look at me! I am one of those Brits with the free time made available to us by our habit of robbing the people in our colonies."
The Jstan decimal system, divide the difficulty of the climb by the number of hours(free time available) the individual climber has climbed/trained in the previous three years for the JDS rating.
This will prove I am much better than Honnold, Croft, Sharma...
There is nothing confusing about it.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!