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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Dec 30, 2007 - 05:17pm PT
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Why arent the first ascentionists of the Shield catching all kinds of crap for bringing the headwall into submission? Far more damage done to the headwall on the Shield than any that was done or ever will be on WoS.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 30, 2007 - 05:24pm PT
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Matt- I salute your clarity here.
Pete- how often do you bounce test narrow Logan hooks? Very little uncertainty about which hook to use on this route. Who were you climbing with that day on WOS?
How many hook placements between drilled rivets or bolts at the maximum? I just talked with one of the Poo Crew and he remembers little more than a body length spacing anywhere. Were any of your midpitch hook placements into actual drilled holes that might have held a rivet?
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Dec 30, 2007 - 05:56pm PT
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Poo Crew™...
LOL!!
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Dec 30, 2007 - 06:13pm PT
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"Pete- how often do you bounce test narrow Logan hooks? Very little uncertainty about which hook to use on this route. Who were you climbing with that day on WOS?
How many hook placements between drilled rivets or bolts at the maximum? I just talked with one of the Poo Crew and he remembers little more than a body length spacing anywhere. Were any of your midpitch hook placements into actual drilled holes that might have held a rivet?"
Steve, I really have to repeat, I saw NO ENCHANCEMENTS. Nothing. Certainly no drilled holes, for crying out loud! It's impossible to see any enhancements on the first two pitches. Mark and Richard should have denied chipping micro-crystals, because you can't SEE anything. But these guys are not liars, and they told us all precisely what they did, and everything I observed confirms this. I was climbing with Randy and Tom, and later Richard and Mark came by [see below].
Your mate from the Poo Crew is full of it! Or more precisely, his memory has failed him in his old age. The runouts are LONG, Steve! Forty- and fifty-foot fall potential all over the place. My cheat stick [see below] wasn't long enough to make the final moves between bolts near the top, and it's damn near twenty feet long. So, I dunno - twenty feet of hooking with placements averaging three feet apart? Seven moves or so? Probably more hook moves, because you can't find an edge where you want it usually. You might make a short one- or two-foot hook move, then a desperate top-step.
PETE'S WINGS OF STEEL MINI-TRIP REPORT
[or do I mean, "bollocks of mush?"]
Here are few snippets from emails I've sent. Sorry I never got round to writing something sooner here on McTopo. Randy and Tom can probably tell you lots more, too. Stuff in italics is other people talking.
Hey guys, here's about everything I've ever written. I never really wrote much on McTopo - too embarrassing to be spanked so hard!
"BTW - How hard was WOS, really? I believe its not over-bolted/rivited, I know the hooking is thin...so whats the dealio, if you could share?"
'Thin' doesn't begin to describe the hooking on WOS! Imagine the worst possible edge that you could barely get the smallest hook to sit on. I'm not talking about a talon, because that is too good of an edge. I am talking about a micro-ripple on an 85-degree wall - just laid back enough to make this insanity barely doable - and do it again and again and again. Hook placements so scary you don't even want to get on them on toprope!
So what you need to do is walk along the base of the slab there with your aiders and a couple of those little Leeper hooks, the tiniest ones, and just try hooking. You will quickly see what you are up against. Don't think that it gets any better up higher on the pitch, because it doesn't.
It was impossible for me to commit to these hooks, because I was certain that they would blow off at any minute. I basically cheat-sticked my way up the first pitch with a big long tent pole, because the hook moves were impossible for me to do on lead. There were a few reasonable moves, but most of the hooks were totally unreasonable.
It was too terrifying for me to be leading over these 25-year-old rivets, that are just those concrete things where you have a hollow shaft, and you put a little nail through the middle. I believe the box said they were rated to 485 pounds or something insane? Tom could tell us more. He replaced these old "rivets" with new ones of the same kind, which is what Mark and Richard preferred when we asked them. Greg Barnes will tell you we mostly use 1/4" Rawl buttonheads, which are perhaps four times stronger. Mark and Richard said their rivets were never intended to hold falls - sheesh. How sick is that?
So you have to imagine me there on the first pitch, and you will be laughing your ass off at how lame I was! Remember that this whole fiasco of my failed attempt was prefaced with hundreds of WoS threads on McTopo, me getting tempted by offers of beer, but mostly just my curiosity to see WTF was up, eh?
I should have bloody known better, if Werner was up there offering a 2-4 for the second ascent. He's seen so many people fail over the years, he knew it was a safe offer never to pay!
"What's a 2-4?"
Oh, for .... bloody Merrican. Ask a Hoser, eh?
So here I am standing at the bottom of the first pitch, kinda flexing my muscles and pulling Dr. Piton Superhero Poses, meanwhile my bollocks are shrivelled in terror as I realize I have to freaking go up there and climb it!
So I climb up and right along this ledge, I think I had to replace an old head, and there were a couple ok hook moves and I'm clipped to the first bolt. Then what? Frig, there's nothing here to hook. Tom's belaying. I'm trying this, trying that, nothing will stick. "Bloody 'ell, those wankers Mark and Richard were manic! I can't bloody do this, Tom."
And Tom's like, "we've invested way too much in this. Why don't you grab the Lovetron?"
Now the Lovetron is a legit piece of gear on one route he and I had climbed [sort of], this being Scorched Earth. I had taken the tent pole and got a long hunk of tat, and taped it to the pole, putting clip-in loops every two-three feet up the thing. On Scorched Earth, you hook this edge fifteen feet up, and climb up the tent pole. [Incidentally, I hooked the wrong spot on the edge, and after climbing all the way up the tent pole, when I saw the spot it was on, I nearly puked I was so scared. I whipped another hook on the right spot pretty darn fast.]
So I never took the webbing off the Lovetron.
[Dec. 07: the sling is still on the tent pole, but I have only used it the two times, once on Scorched Earth, and on WoS. I have always found a way to climb routes without cheating, however a few times I have extended my reach using my hammer. So I guess that's cheating. Oh well.]
So after basically cheat-sticking myself to the top of the first pitch, it seemed so stupid to me. I'm like, 'what am I doing up here? I can't do these moves AT ALL. I'm just cheat-sticking my way up the wall! This isn't fun, I'm scared shitless anyway. It's like me trying to lead a 5.13 sport climb, and cheat sticking from bolt to bolt since I was incapable of doing the free moves. Let's get the fvck off this thing, I'm in over my head.'
So I bailed. I didn't have it in me - way way WAAAAAY too sick and scary for me, mate. And it's not like I haven't done any hooking, either! I've soloed eight hard-ish routes over on the right side like IH and NS and ZM and SS and stuff, done the Sea and Jolly Roger and other routes requiring lots of hooks, but with the exception of JR, the WoS hook moves are hugely harder, and consistently so. I remember one truly sick move on JR plus lots of hard ones, but nothing like WoS. Wings is a whole different ballgame, dude.
So Tom replaces the bolts, and also replaces the old rivets with new rivets of the same kind. NOT Rawl 1/4" buttonheads, that Greg Barnes writes on the other posts are good for 2000 lb. I didn't know that, incidentally. Maybe on Welcome to Wyoming I should have put in 5/16" x 3/4" machine bolts instead? Is the pitch now "easier" because of the buttonheads? It's probably safer, isn't it? Still, you could most assuredly die with that scary rope-cutting edge.
Anyway, so now Tom has replaced the rivets and bolts on the first pitch. He also did the second pitch because Ammon's ropes were up, and Gabe told Tom we could use 'em. Ammon climbed the easier start, incidentally, but don't think for a moment it's easy. He also skipped the crux of the route according to Mark and Richard, which is the start of the legit second pitch - before it is joined by the easier start - where Mark I think took about a 40' factor 2 fall and completely trashed a rope. He described to me in great detail how the rope got all stiff and curly as a result of the fall! Yikes!!! It's protected with those shitty rivets, too, not bolts!
Well Mark and Richard are pretty saddened that I've wimped out. And other people are like, C'mon Pete, we're counting on you! The bolts are replaced - give it a go! And I'm like, no way, I'm gonna fall, I'll probably get hurt, and it just ain't no fun. I don't LIKE falling, I like climbing. And I'll be doing more falling than climbing. Forget it.
But Mark and Richard are really encouraging. "C'mon Pete, it's not that hard. C'mon over to the base of the slab, and we'll give you a few hooking tips that we remember."
Now this bit is really funny - I have this distinct picture in my mind of Richard I think it was walking along the base of the slab with his aiders and a couple Leeper hooks, trying to find something to hook on. And I see him go like a hundred yards, and maybe actually stand on a hook like two times! There he is, way the hell down there, trying to find something to hook on! Too funny!
But Mark and Richard are SO encouraging, they made a special trip to Yos, I'm their Great White Hope, or maybe just some dumbass life insurance agent part-time wanker who thinks he can climb their route.
And I'm like, "OK, guys. I'll give it a try. I will try to climb the first pitch on toprope, learn the skill of this insane hooking, put the moves together under toprope, and then after I have cheated by toproping it a bunch of times, I'll pull the toprope, and make the "headpoint" ascent, meaning to lead the route after practising it on toprope. This is what they have sometimes done on the gritstone E9's and E10's in Britain, incidentally. The 'headpoint' ascent!"
One wonders if this was the First Aid Headpoint Ascent Attempt on El Cap? Has anyone else done this? Ammon laughed his ass off at me when I told him my plan!
Now, here's the thing. I have not been to a climbing gym in 5+ years. I never EVER toprope climbs on the rock. My ONLY experience climbing over the last five years has been leading aid pitches on the wall. I don't climb at home in Ontario - all my climbing gear is in Yosemite. I leave Yosemite in the fall, go home, and the next time I touch rock [or even plastic] is back at the base of El Cap the next spring. I am 100% an off-the-couch climber, for to train is to cheat.
Consequently, the toprope doesn't do me any good, at least from a confidence standpoint. So I was toprope soloing with a Grigri. And man was it slow. People got bored watching me, and had disappeared. Christian's right - ivy climbs faster than me. Maybe Tom was up on the second pitch rebolting, Randy wandered off cuz he was bored, and I was alone most of the time.
Now here is the really embarrassing part - I was terrified! I just couldn't "get" the toprope, man. It just didn't seem to help me. I can't do toprope!!! I know this is fvcked up, maybe you get it. I told Ammon later and he sure didn't get it. He thought it was absolutely absurd that I would practise an AID climb on toprope as explained above, and especially tobe scared! He didn't get it, and I can see his point. I'm such a pvssy.
Dude! It took me FIVE FRICKIN' HOURS to aid-hook this thing on toprope. I fell off more than a few times. I was terrified. My body was killing me trying to stay in balance. Mark and Richard described the pain of how their feet went to sleep while drilling bolts and rivets on lead, and that would have been ten times worse than what I was doing! The fear they had to face down is beyond belief. I honestly don't know how the hell they did it, it's just way too sick for me.
There are definitely places on the first pitch where if you fall, you could well break an ankle. I believe either Mark or Richard dislocated their ankle in a fall on the first pitch, but they pressed on. These guys were motivated by their detractors, and to me I think they raised far above themselves to a level never before seen. They were bitchin' beyond belief, I think. Somehow they channeled the negative energy into positive energy.
The locals who shat on their ropes probably achieved precisely what they wanted [K]NOT[T] to achieve - they pissed off Mark and Richard to the point that they became very very determined. And I think that might be what allowed Mark and Richard to pull this off - they were mad as hell, and they were gonna show those wankers, dammit.
On my toprope headpoint attempt, I could do most of the moves, but there were still a few moves where I just couldn't figure out how to do it. Ammon said the hook moves were also very difficult on the second pitch, except he was leading! Ammon told me he took at least three fifty-foot falls on the second pitch, until he worked out the hooking sequence. Falling fifty feet on these pitches isn't a possibility, it's a CERTAINTY. You WILL fall 50' until you figure it out. You will take many long whippers.
Or at least, would-be ascensionists will. That ain't me. I don't like falling. Mark and Richard don't have Wings of Steel, Mark and Richard have Balls of Steel!
I don't want to take whippers, mate. I have probably never fallen more than 35' in my life, believe it or not.
I had no desire whatsoever to continue working the first pitch on toprope until I could lead it. NONE. It would have been cheating to me. Even if I had stuck it out [how many tries - ten tries?] until I could lead it, so fvckin' what? I wasn't prepared to make the investment in time and fear, and I sure as hell wasn't prepared to go up and take 50' falls all the way up the slab, just to bag the second ascent. There is a REASON it took those guys so fvckin' long to climb the thing, and that is because it is fvckin' HARD HARD HARD. They were falling all over the bloody place all the time!
NO THANKS.
I came down, and me and Tom had an awful lot more fun on Cosmos. Man, did we trundle a huge feature... We replaced a few anchor bolts.
Anyway, what I learned from all of this mucking about on Wings of Steel is that everything I observed was 100% consistent with what Mark and Richard had told me, and with what they had written about the route on McTopo.
Part of my reason for trying WoS - besides my curiosity about the difficulty of the climbing - was to see if Mark and Richard were really the villains they were painted to be. I knew from their writing they are truly Men of Passion - and although prone to ranting too much, and often appearing very defensive - a result of being unjustly persecuted for 25 years! - their writing was consistent, both with previous things they had posted, and with each other's writing. So what I mean is that their words had the ring of truth. I look hard for inconsistencies. It's like when you meet a girl off the internet, the first thing you check is to see that she is the same person in the flesh she made herself out to be on line. Girls lie about their age and their weight, and guys lie to say they really want a relationship when all they want is sex. So I wanted to see if Mark and Richard in person were consistent with the persona they presented on line.
In fact, the more they were attacked and libelled here on McTopo, the harder they dug their heels in and stuck to their guns. They had no internet savvy - they didn't know when the hell to shut up. They shot themselves in the foot so many times on McTopo - just when it seemed they were winning the war of words, they just couldn't resist chiming in again.
It's like in sales, when you ask your client to buy, you STFU. Because "he who speaks first, loses." If you make your point and shut up, people will buy. You have to resist the temptation to keep on selling your idea, when the person is ready to buy it. In salesman's parlance, this is called, "talking yourself out of the sale." Mark and Richard are masters at this. But they are both teachers, so they don't know anything about selling or the Real World, they just stand at the front of their class and lecture, and the kids better pay attention and recite back exactly what the prof wants to hear in order to get an A. Bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha!!!
Actually, Mark and Richard must be fabulous profs and very well-loved by their students, because some of their students have come to their defense here in McTopo. I can't think of a single prof in university I would have done that for, and that alone speaks volumes for their character.
OK, so let's go back and examine the question of their credibility. Are they pathetic wankers who bolted their way up the slab, murdering the thing with "a thousand bolts to Horse Chute"? Well, I saw on the wall that this was emphatically not the case.
Or are they lying bastards who try to "whitewash" the truth, as purported by Valley legend [and Legends]? Honestly, it was this second bit that intrigued me the most, because I have a vested interest in this sort of thing.
On the internet, for better or for worse, I have always been me. I have never hidden behind a fake identity - such nameless, faceless and dickless detractors are the epitome of cowardice. I have suffered more than my share of attack, and although some of it was warranted [I have a big mouth sometimes] lots of it wasn't.
Mark and Richard seemed to be taking a huge amount of unjust criticism, from what I could see. So I decided to check them out, not just as climbers, but as men.
So we met, spent several days together talking and trying to climb and stuff. Indeed, Mark Smith and Richard Jensen are Men of Character. You could never find anyone more "solid" in my books. They not only talk the talk, but they walk the walk, too. They are truthful, forthright, honest, devoted, and man, are they passionate! I love a good rant. Fortunately, they are not prone to ranting in person. They are actually pretty ordinary-looking guys, who rose to and achieved an extraordinary feat. I think their detractors are confused by hearsay and lies, and motivated by jealousy, because Richard Jensen and Mark Smith are ETS - Emphatically The Sh|t!
I really like them a lot, and feel priveleged to call them my friends.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Dec 30, 2007 - 06:39pm PT
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Mimi: " MSmith, since you feel an obligation to respond to questions, how about these unrequieted gems:
Mimi, we're waiting for you to answer a few questions yourself over in this thread: http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=236000&tn=0&mr=0
See the fifth post down.
Mark and Richard have been more then reasonable in responding to your many questions and rantings. It is only fair that you answer a few of their questions. Until you answer those questions, Mark and Richard should not respond to any questions from you.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Dec 30, 2007 - 06:45pm PT
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Fet:" It is so obvious bogus judgements were made when WoS went up. Based on them being outsiders, applying double standards, mob menality, jealousy, a new type of line (that granted is not for everyone) etc.
Now some are so deeply invested in maintaining their anger and derision against the WoS guys, they keep grasping at straws to come up with stuff to hold against them. The supposed transgressions get less and less important, as the earlier ones are proved false.
The WoS guys were given a bum rap. No one inspected the climbing prior to condeming it, that's pretty much all you need to know to realize all the negativity is based on BS.
They got tons of crap from almost all corners and didn't give up. That's ballsy. They dug in their heels and repsonded to the cristisism as best they could, and are still doing it.
Now instead of recognizing that, certain folks are now looking at their motivations, experience, etc. to get anything that will help them maintain their belief that they were right and the Wos guys were wrong, very sad really.
They need to get some guts and some pride and looks at things objectively. Maybe they don't like the style of the climb, that's perfectly acceptable, but to disparage them with lies and think that you have ANY more right to climb in the Valley because you were a "local" (in a public park) is so very weak.
I, like many others, user to think the route was poor, since I had been told all the lies and BS, these threads helped me see the truth, and gain a lot of respect for Richard and Mark.
Word! Especially the paragraph in bold.
I can understand why Mark and Richard still have strong feelings over what happened. They were wronged against for 25 years. However, Mimi and a few others are even more hung up over it then others. I wouldn't be surprised if Mimi was one of the shitters. Mimi's posts stink to the high heavens.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 30, 2007 - 06:59pm PT
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So, were Ammon's big peels on the actual WOS route or on the "bogus start?" You also say that he didn't lead the crux section right below the point of connection. Is that accurate and did those guys climb through that area in any way while they were poking around?
I have little doubt that the climbing those guys left behind is spooky, especially equipped with those crappy rivets.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 30, 2007 - 07:07pm PT
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What does Mescadawn have to do with this discussion Graniteclimber?
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Dec 30, 2007 - 07:21pm PT
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Steve,
So far as I am aware [Ammon can tell you better] the bogus start begins to the left, and intersects the second pitch about two rivets and 40' above the first belay. I believe it was put up by Mark and Richard in order to get back up after the chopping/sh|tting episode.
They told me the hardest hooking on the route was the first two rivets of the second pitch, about 40' or so. Those rivets are no closer than 20' apart. They are the same crap rivets. Mark [I think] described his 40' near-factor-2 fall onto the first belay, totally trashing his rope from the impact, leaving the rope in "curls". How sick is that?
I should have mentioned in the trip report that the only "safe" way to lead the beginning of the second legit pitch, which nobody has done, would be to dangle the belayer from the first belay on a long-ass rope of 30' or more, so he could clip the bolt on the belay with a screamer. That way if he whips from close to the second rivet - naturally ripping the first - the fall factor is reduced to a "mere" 1.0 or so. Sheesh - my fingers are getting sweaty just typing it.
Ammon took his whippers higher up on the second pitch, after the point where the bogus start joins the route. You will have to ask him why he chose to climb the bogus start rather than the original. He beat me to it when me and Cybie were up on Dihedral. I could not have got up the thing I don't think without the assistance of his fixed ropes, which dangled from the first belay to the ground. While I was able to cheat stick my way up most of the first pitch, the last few bolts/rivets were so far apart, I couldn't reach 'em. I just grabbed Ammon's rope and jugged. I'm such a pVssy!
I disagree that the crap rivets should have been replaced with new crap, but we respected their wishes.
Steve, if you define "spooky" as "YOUR WORST M*THERF*CKIN' CLIMBING NIGHTMARE", then um, sure - it's spooky.
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Lost Arrow
Trad climber
The North Ridge of the San Fernando
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Dec 30, 2007 - 07:39pm PT
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If Harding had done wings of steel and used dowels the whole way would we be having this discussion?
The people that sh#t on the ropes seem to have some need to justify their actions all these years later.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Dec 30, 2007 - 07:43pm PT
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Steve, since you deign to use Mark's real name, I'll jump at the chance to have as civil of a dialog as might be possible with you.
I find your question about our previous experience to be a complete red herring. I will answer it, but your charge of us being "slippery" is utterly ridiculous. NOBODY in the entire history of climbing has EVER provided the minute detail (ALL of which that can be verified HAS been verified as true) about a climb! For you to call us "slippery" at this point reveals something akin to intentional insanity on your part. However, a few more reasonable people also seem to want to know that answer, so I will answer THEM without giving ANY credence to your charge.
BTW, if anybody is being slippery, it is mimisoft that has for years refused to answer the simple challenge arising from ITS own line of questioning. Seems that when things turn back around, mimisoft is strangely silent, despite years of prodding on the subject.
Now, before I answer the experience question, let me preface it by saying that if your best response is to start calling me a liar, then I guarantee you will hear no more of my responses to your questions, and that will not be a function of "slipperiness;" it will be a function of finally despairing of ever finding a speck of common ground between us. I'm almost there already, but I'll give this one more shot.
I had been an avid climber for 12 years prior to WoS. During those years I climbed primarily in Southern California. I got to be a fairly respectable free climber, given the era of EBs. I won't tout my skills beyond to say that I was free-soloing 5.10c slabs in EBs and could redpoint pretty much any 5.11 in SoCal. As better shoes came along I could bag some 5.12s.
However, I found aid climbing much more interesting. You won't recognize any of the SoCal aid climbs, and none of them will impress you (which is beside the point). But I spent many years developing my abilities. The Riverside Quarry is a 200-foot high band of overhanging, blasted granite, and there I learned to feel comfortable on loose rock the likes of which most people will never see in their lives. Almost entire ROUTES we climbed there have since fallen off. Mark and I also did climbs there that were far, far harder and more dangerous than anything we found on fifth ascent of the Sea of Dreams.
I met Mark just as the Quarry was starting to get attention from a handful of climbers that realized its aid potential. Mark can provide any details he cares to, but I can say that Mark was the best and most experienced climber I had climbed with at the Quarry. He had also been aid climbing for years before he met me, and we quickly formed a close bond based upon our love of aid climbing.
We were naturally competitive in a good way, constantly goading each other into nailing a looser block on some more ridiculous pitch on some more dangerous Quarry climb. At the Quarry we really honed our abilities utilizing all sorts of placements, including many, many hooks. The question was asked about how many hooks we had stood on on lead, and I can say that the number was countless. And, these hooks were generally used facing far worse falls on far more dangerous climbs than any pitch of the Sea. Just because you might disdain the Quarry does not mean that it does not have some of the hardest aid climbing anywhere. In short, both Mark and I learned during our Quarry years to face the worst and keep pushing.
I should mention that during the years prior to meeting Mark I did manage to get to Yosemite now and then (I was very, very poor), and I did solo the South Face route of WC in a couple of days.
Another thing we used to do while training for WoS was to find steep slab routes and try to lead them using hooks instead of free climbing. That was how we learned how to top-loop micro-flake hooks without causing the hook to rotate and skit sideways.
I will say, however, that the hooking on WoS was a new order of hooking compared to anything we (or it turns out, anybody) had encountered before. The El Cap rock is so much better than we were used to that it enabled much smaller flakes to be hooked than we initially imagined. To get comfortable with what could be hooked on the slab, we spent a couple of days hook bouldering along the base of the slab.
I should point out that people underestimate the value of aid bouldering. In a couple of days one can very quickly get up to speed on the nature of a particular sort of climbing by just aid bouldering it. Witness our ability to go from basically no sandstone experience to doing "possibly the hardest rock climb in the world" (from Climbing magazine's hype of Intifada). Aid bouldering is all one needs to learn how to do a particular sort of aid climbing, that is if one has some intelligence and already has the "head" for hard aid climbing.
So, at this point I'm not sure what you hope to gain from this line of questioning, Steve. Let's consider your options:
1) You can harp on the fact that we WERE "inexperienced kids," and that THIS justifies the treatment we received. Sorry. This isn't going to fly for several reasons. First, we WERE doing good quality climbing on that slab, as has since been verified. This could have been verified by the chopping party or by anybody that cared to hike up to the base. There was and is no direct correlation between our prior experience and the quality of climbing on WoS. So our prior experience appears to be moot. Second, it is obvious from the GROUND that the route is nothing like the lies told about it and about us. In fact, the LIES are what justified and motivated the mob mentality. Finally, and most damning, not ONCE did anybody hassle us about our "inexperience" as we were putting up the climb. During the month after the route was chopped, while we were forced to ascend the ranger hierarchy and spend hours and hours talking with groups of SAR boys and impromptu "meetings" with groups of hostile locals, not ONCE did anybody raise that issue. ALL the discussion centered around the "bolt ladder" we were blasting up El Cap. No matter how many times we offered to bring people up to the base with us, no matter how often we offered to bring people up to our anchors so they could see first-hand what was happening, people preferred to believe lies told by "credible" people who had not seen the route for themselves. Even the chopping was done at night.
2) You might say that we were inexperienced and use that to say that we could have put up a much better route had we had more experience. Maybe so, maybe no. Prior to us, nobody on Earth had experience with the sort of hooking that WoS has. We learned all we needed to know about it in a couple of days bouldering around the base of the slab. We were willing to take our falls, and we did. We were willing to risk our flesh and our joints, and we lost some of those too. Also, had we done other routes, like let's say the Sea first, we would have learned that significant levels of "enhancement" were employed, along with trenched heads and so forth. We didn't use those tactics on WoS largely because we didn't know about them. And it turns out that our drilling ratio is better than the Sea's anyway. It's pure speculation at this point how the route would have been different. I for one doubt it would have been better.
3) You might say that our lack of YOSEMITE experience justified the mob mentality. Several people have alluded to this idea: that we could have made things much easier on ourselves by integrating ourselves into the local climbing community first. I certainly understand the motivation behind this line of thought, but it was actually untenable for a number of reasons, and, finally, it is itself no justification. It was untenable because we were so poor that we simply could not afford to make the number of Yosemite trips that would have been necessary to "join the club," so to speak. But, let's say that we HAD been able to afford to make many Yosemite trips. Ok, picture this: Mark and I don't drink, don't smoke, don't do drugs, don't find most of the typical "humor" funny, and we kept the Sabbath. I actually laugh when I think of us "integrating" into the "local scene" of that era. People, that wasn't going to happen, and it is nutty to think that we were going to find anything but incredulous stares. No, instead, as the trouble began, we honestly and idealistically believed that we would be able to dialog reasonably with anybody that had a problem with the route.
This is a PUBLIC park, remember. NOBODY has "rights" to the resources there. We were honestly surprised to find the "dogs pissing on trees" mentality (Harding's summation of it). We didn't have it or see it in SoCal. And we honestly believed that "people are people" everywhere and could be reasoned with.
No, none of these approaches to our "inexperience" are going to act as an explanation or justification because of two simple facts. First, we were NOT inexperienced. The fact that we didn't have tons of YOSEMITE experience is meaningless, and THIS is something that people would do well to understand once and for all! It is simply ridiculous and outrageous to cut any slack toward individuals that still believe it is proper or appropriate to act the way people acted back then (and few even since then). The fact that we weren't known in YOSEMITE circles is NO excuse for people to have given up HUMAN values and ethics and thereby REFUSE to discourse like reasonable human beings.
Second, the fact remains (and becomes clearer with time) that it was the stupidity, arrogance, and unreasonable "dogs pissing on trees" mentality that HAD to be sustained, and it is THAT mentality that still seeks for a justification today. THAT mentality causes herds, mobs, gangs, and finally nations to rise up against each other. I read on other threads how people decry the US military spending and the wars of aggression in which we are engaged. But you will find the same lust for power, elitism, arrogance, and determination to avoid accountability behind ALL of it.
Our experience or lack thereof is a red herring BECAUSE is has no relevance to how we were treated, and there IS no justification for the decades of lies that started from the beginning of the route and that a few people continue to try to sustain to this day. Ignorance is no crime. Intentional ignorance is negligent. Stupidity and determination to believe a lie in the face of the evidence is reprehensible. But violating PEOPLE on the basis of intentional lies is absolutely wrong, and there is no possible justification for it.
I know you're looking for some wiggle-room here, Steve. But, at this point, a reasonable man says, "It would have been easier for us if you had been 'in' our circle, but people still acted wrongly toward you, and we found excuses to avoid the clear truth and to stoop to the lowest forms of mob mentality and actions. Big mistake. Let's put it behind us." And we will be happy to do so. There have already been many reasonable people on this forum. Will you be among them, or will you "stand proud" with mimisoft and claim that it was the "elite" that believed and perpetrated lies and used them to justify unjustifiable behavior?
So, my real question for you is this: since you continue to employ hearsay about the route (body-length distance between drilling, and so forth), I have to conclude that you have never SEEN the route for yourself first-hand. After all, why would you ask questions that would be stupid if you had actually been to the base of the route and LOOKED at what is there? Why do you continue to ask such questions in the face of what Pete and Ammon have reported? WHAT would it take to convince you that there are run-outs of hooking like you have never experienced? Are you utterly beyond the reach of evidence?
Answer me: HAVE you been to the base of the route to actually SEE what is there? If "no," then what makes you think that you have ANYTHING to say about the route? If "yes," then why do you keep asking ridiculous questions the answers to which are in front of your face?
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Wrathchild
Big Wall climber
Satan's testicles
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Dec 30, 2007 - 07:55pm PT
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Richard,
nobody but you cares enough to read that much of a post about this.
Use Mark's real name? Are you serious? You guys WROTE A BOOK! We all know who you are. Even my mother knows who you are.
If you crave the attention so much as to dredge this festival of idiocy back up, I suggest, you go prove how badass you really are, and go do the SA. That will shut EVERYONE up for good, but you will be videotaped with a huge zoom lens, count on it.
So I throw down the gauntlet:
Put up
Shut up
Or get over it
This has been tiresome in the extreme.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Dec 30, 2007 - 08:07pm PT
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Steve Grossman: " What does Mescadawn have to do with this discussion Graniteclimber?"
Steve, do I really need to spell it out to you, or are you being purposely obtuse? If WOS is "bad" (in the eyes of Mark and Richard's critics) because of its drillings and modifications and there are other climbs in the the area with more drillings and modifications then WOS, then those climbs are "worse." If there are worse climbs then WOS, then Mark and Richard's critics should direct their fire against the more egregious climbs. If they are taking a rational, principled stand.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Dec 30, 2007 - 08:18pm PT
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Wrathchild, WE did not dredge anything back up. We are simply responding to what others have dredged up. If you can't be bothered to engage with the topic enough to read what everybody takes the time to post, then you should just butt out of it. Grossman asked a question, and I answered it. If you don't want to read it, no problem, but if after reading ALL I have written over the years you think that I'm going to back down from a posting like your's, you are... well... come to think about it, CLEARLY you don't take the time to read, so you are ignorant on the subject.
Your idea of us doing the SA is laughable on countless levels, and you obviously don't know anything about this topic if you think that "attention" is what's motivating my end of this discussion. Quit projecting.
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Dec 30, 2007 - 08:21pm PT
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Gospodi!
Mimi’s post says more about the mentality of the rock climbing “community” in that time and place than anything else.
Looks like in order to be able to climb in a national, public park without your personal rights being violated you have to submit a comprehensive resume to the approval of the valley hierarchy. Don’t get all high and mighty about maintaining the ethics or the essence of the spiritual journey or any of that, you’re trying to give yourselves ground to stand on - when frankly you have none - while ignoring the fact that the damage done to the rock, if any, is so miniscule that multiple independent observers have stated that they would never have noticed it if the two FA climbers hadn’t had the sack enough to be upfront about the less than little that did occur.
You can talk about the slippery slope of rock climbing ethics and all that but again, taff, no one’s been up that route a second time. There’s no one to see the route and say “See, it was okay for the WoS boys.” And it sure as hell doesn’t give you justification for what you did.
And what does it say about your “spiritual journey” that the way you deal with people you don’t agree with or feel aren’t experienced enough to do the run they claim is to refuse dialogue, refuse to investigate their routes as freely offered, violate their civil rights repeatedly and in heinous fashion and then brag about it, then spend the next 25 years engaging in a campaign of slander, lies, and suppression of the truth through the utilization of others in your inner clique?
And now, Mimi, when it’s becoming clear to most everyone who’s who and what’s what, you try to turn it around and say, “Here, see? They never gave us their comprehensive resume.” Wow. Great. Well now, that totally justifies everything you folks did. In the words of Judge Judy, “Don’t pee on my leg and tell me it’s raining.”
And the other quote was mine. “It is good to see that across the internet asininity pervades each community with the same certainty as algae staining the inside of a toilet flush tank. It's comforting that there are constants in the universe.” While I admit that Matt was pretty well right on the money with one of his responses to me that what did I honestly expect on the internet, I don’t know. I guess I expected more of what I would have thought to be a supportive, spiritually sound community built around a damn ballsy sport. For cry yi, I’ve seen Warcraft communities that are more mature.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Dec 30, 2007 - 08:25pm PT
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Wrathchild: "If you crave the attention so much as to dredge this festival of idiocy back up."
If you had taken the trouble to read the thread first, you would see that it was Mimi who resurrected this thread, not Richard. But it is typical of the critics in this thread to make false accusations without any factual basis, so don't let that stop you.
Wrathchild: "Richard, nobody but you cares enough to read that much of a post about this....I suggest, you go prove how badass you really are, and go do the SA."
So you can't even be bothered to read his post, but you want him to go back and do another ascent?
Why don't you go back and do a second ascent?
So I throw down the gauntlet:
Put up
Shut up
Or get over it
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Dec 30, 2007 - 08:30pm PT
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Oh boy! A FULL ON RICHARD RANT appears above! Time to grab my beer and sit down for a read!
Da Dweeb - Bravo! {applause}
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Dec 30, 2007 - 08:31pm PT
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graniteclimber:
[topo for Mescadawn]
> Does this route have more or fewer drillings and modifications then WOS?
More. If it matters, I have climbed Mescadawn, and looked at the topo for Wings of Steel. I have also done the routes on either side of Wings of Steel (Aquarian/Never Never Land and Horse Chute).
Way more if you compare the original Dawn Wall / Wall of Early Morning Light with Wings of Steel. The original Dawn Wall had 330 drilled holes, and it was climbed over a period of 27 days - see the Robbins interview in The Vertical World of Yosemite, p. 200.
Although this question suggests you don't know the history (you can read the above book). The original Dawn Wall had the bolts removed (aka "chopped") from the first few pitches, because some/many of the resident climbers at that time felt that too many bolts were used. Later the people removing the bolts changed their minds and climbed the rest of the route without removing bolts. A few years later, Mescalito was done, which crosses the original Dawn Wall and uses a much smaller number of bolts, although it still has a fairly long rivet/bolt ladder across much of 2 pitches.
When Wings of Steel was done, some/many of the resident climbers were concerned that it was going to use "too many" bolts, like the original Dawn Wall. The FA team's fixed ropes and some bolts were removed and vandalized by a few people, apparently after some incorrect judgement was made about the number of bolts/drilled holes on the first pitch or two. Steve is trying to understand if that judgement was made correctly or not.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Dec 30, 2007 - 08:38pm PT
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Oh! Oh! I'm halfway through Richard's RANT! He's about to shoot himself in the foot! I can see it coming!
Wow, I finished. That was pretty darn good, Richard. Your foot appears intact.
Please don't despair about not being in "the club" - I've been climbing walls in Yosemite every spring and fall since 1995, and I'm still not one of the Cool Kids. Bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!!!!
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