Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
TGT
Social climber
So Cal
|
|
There's been a dearth of activity just north of the equator all winter.
In the last couple of winters there's been a strong westward flow of evaporatively derived moisture that rides along the equator and then gets picked up north over Bangladesh and Indochina and eventually becomes the pineapple express.
Not much has been going on along the equator all winter. (maybe it's been too cool?)
http://www.eldoradocountyweather.com/satellite/ssec/wide-view-us-pacific-asia-sat.html
|
|
stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
|
|
There will have to be some serious decisions about what kind of ag is suitable for California. Things that need lots of water, such as alfalfa or rice, should not be grown there.
|
|
Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
|
|
pretty good taco truck in Planada,
|
|
tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
|
|
It made me sick to see green grass and wet sidewalks in San Bernardino and Redlands year round. I'm from BC and for the last 30 years we have had summer watering restrictions even though we have more water than you. I have no pity for California right now. Waste not want not.
|
|
Sredni Vashtar
Social climber
The coastal redwoods
|
|
I agree, all the overvwatering to keep so Cal lawns green is ridiculous. Angelinos are in denial they live in a desert clime
|
|
Paul Martzen
Trad climber
Fresno
|
|
In years like this we in California are almost completely dependent on stored ground water. The water table is like a bank that had large deposits in the past till it was full. Now we have been spending it as fast as possible with only a few deposits so the bank is very low. Really, we could require that every drop taken from the water table has to be repaid with interest, just like any other bank. That would be the conservative thing to do.
|
|
mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
|
|
It's amazing how much we depend on groundwater when things dry up.
The conversation we had the other day in Reinero's while the Super Bore bore on was enlightening and I'm glad that I finally met a guy I've wanted to know these many years since moving back to town.
His name is Ed Mitchell and is a professional well driller with a sterling conscience. We need plenty of men who think like he does, uses his pull to get the right things done, and is really more concerned than ever, now he's retired, with the problems of groundwater pumping and levels lowering, etc.
He said that when one large rancher, drilling for a 450 hp turbine, will eat up the supply for the surrounding ranches and farms for miles by going deeper, sucking up water they can't reach with shallow wells, and these suckers (my epithet) get away with it and then turn around and sell it to the neighbors.
He's done it himself, as he's a business man, but at the same time he is on the MID board and has been for years, helping to direct them away from this policy, or so he implied. I do know he is one of the smartest guys I've ever heard say ANYTHING because he is as articulate as Ed Hartouni or even Bridwell.
Cheers. Adam's Ale. The very best.
|
|
mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
|
|
Recent news in the McClatchy papers.
http://www.fresnobee.com/2014/01/31/3743403/california-drought-produces-thirst.html
Rep. David Valadao: "Families and farmers alike are not receiving the water they need to meet their basic, everyday needs."
"Sen. Dianne Feinstein indicated Friday she will introduce her own California water bill early next week. Some significant differences will separate the House and Senate versions, leading either to eventual compromise or ceaseless finger-pointing."
Rep. Devin Nunes: "The time for talk is over. It's time for the Senate to join us in providing critical assistance to the people of California."
"Politically, the House bill divides the state."
Ceaseless blather
I would rather
Chain the lawyers
To the bottom of the bay.
Any day.
|
|
kunlun_shan
Mountain climber
SF, CA
|
|
I'm from BC and for the last 30 years we have had summer watering restrictions even though we have more water than you. I have no pity for California right now. Waste not want not.
Tooth, I'm from BC too, as you know. I see the same behaviour in California and Canada. People let the kitchen tap run while doing whatever. Very little awareness re. water conservation.
The summer before last in Revelstoke (BC), the town was literally about to run out of (treated) water, because some people were letting their sprinklers run 24/7. City workers had to drive around and turn off outside taps. That sparked an ongoing debate as to whether the town should install water meters and charge for useage. A lot of people in BC, my parents included, think water should be free, no matter how much one uses.
If only being Canadian solved the problem... plus we have the tar sands...
|
|
Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
|
|
As far as cities go, I'm an advocate of pricing that encourages good practices.
For example, in my town, LA, the lowest rate for water use, tier 1, is 68 HCF/63 days. Each HCF is 748 gallons....or 807 gal/day.
The first tier usage for each meter is calculated based on lot size, temperature zone, and household size.
My actual usage is 5 HCF, which works out to 59 gal a day.
I am perhaps somewhat radical in my usage, but the average is 127 gal/per capita/day.
In my mind, the tier 1 should be around 70 gal, and the rate should be REDUCED. The next tier should run up to 102 gal (the recommended 20% cut), and be about the same. Above 102, lets say to 200, double the current price.
Above 200, quadruple the current price. Above 300, 10x the current price.
If idiots want to water their cement, fine. Let them pay through the nose for it, and fund the cost of expensive water sources.
|
|
klk
Trad climber
cali
|
|
between 70 and 80% of all water in the state goes to ag. much of that water is delivered at far-below-market-value by taxpayer subsidies.
the only urban areas with water deficiencies are those who are lined up behind ag users.
if we charged water based on cost, most of california agriculture would collapse tomorrow. if we charged water by market price, the entire state would collapse.
urban users are basically the only users in the state who pay anything like cost or market-based rates for their water.
the problem is that water is vastly over-allocated. the new acreas of almonds/walnuts/apricots in that article that mouse linked, are making things rapidly worse, because much of that new plantation is mining groundwater. as a result, we now have a 1200 square mile subsidence zone in the san joaquin valley. most of the sacramento valley subsided years ago, and continues.
and now eastern contra costa is sinking fast.
LA-- and the entire MWD in SOCal, represent one of the most responsible groups of water useres in the entire state.
southern san joaquin represents the least responsible group of water users in the state. botof the current proposal-- devin/nunes and brown, propose we provide more subsidized water to the lower san joaquin. that is to say, at the moment, we have a complete vaccuum of political leadership. i foresee no change in that situation.
water is already vastly overallocated in this state, and water conservation by residential users isnt going to do anything more than scrape the tip of that iceberg.
|
|
stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
|
|
Is the problem with almonds that they are being planted on acreage that wasn't previously farmed, and thus increasing water use, or that almonds use more water than other crops that were previously planted there (which doesn't make too much sense, I'd think trees used less water).
|
|
klk
Trad climber
cali
|
|
Is the problem with almonds that they are being planted on acreage that wasn't previously farmed, and thus increasing water use, or that almonds use more water than other crops that were previously planted there (which doesn't make too much sense, I'd think trees used less water).
it's both. almonds esp in the last 10 yrs are going into what used to be rangeland. look at all the new ones going in there outside oakdale-- many of them obvious from the 120. as small ranchers go under, the land gets rezoned or sold off for orchard land. 80% of those almonds are going to export markets.
but almonds (and most other trees) also use more water than most row crops because they have to be watered year round. row crops that fallow are watered only in season. and almond tree takes 3-4 years, typically, to fruit. that means each new tree is going to get watered year-round for 3-4 years before it even produces its first cash crop.
there's no fallowing of orchards. until you've run out of water or the almond boom is over, and which point you tear them all out and put in the next market chaser.
almonds are all or nothing. spinach (for instance) lets you plant, water, harvest, then fallow. even if you're alternating row crops ( a common practice), most fields will have down seasons when the taps get turned off. it also gives you more flexibility during drought years.
|
|
Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
|
|
some great and learned discussion!
water is already vastly overallocated in this state, and water conservation by residential users isnt going to do anything more than scrape the tip of that iceberg.
An interesting point of view, with a lot of truth, for the State as a whole.
But not necessarily for the city involved. For LA, for example, a significant cut in usage would move the city much closer to a situation where the city moves away from needing distant water sources. The less is needed, the easier it is.
It seems like for the State, the only way forward is through serious regulation of agricultural practices, particularly drawing of groundwater.
How feasible that is, I've no idea.
|
|
Sredni Vashtar
Social climber
The coastal redwoods
|
|
woot, we's gots anuvva storm comin' in, winter storm 'Orion' aka some rain n snow. its been damp here on the insular peninsula for a few days now, can I hand wash my unimog this summer, hose my acres of tarmac drive and flush my 1.7 gallon toilet?
|
|
klk
Trad climber
cali
|
|
a significant cut in usage would move the city much closer to a situation where the city moves away from needing distant water sources.
i don't know what you mean by this-- there's no conceivable future (short of free and easy desalinization) in which LA could dispense with the OV-LA Aqueduct.
All the hype about low-flow toilets is just that-- most residential water goes to landscaping. You could drastically cut DWP and MWD water demand simply by banning non-native grass lawns.
I'm all for water conservation, but most of the reporting on this topic-- and most of the posting I see in threads like this or hear in conversation, even among educated folks-- is appallingly misinformed. THe water crisis in Cali is largely a problem with subsidized water for agribusiness, and there will be nothing but tears until Californians and their elected representatives deal with reality.
The individual cities that are going to be hard-hit are places in the coastal ranges and SIerra foothills who are junior rights holders without access to big out-of-basin transfers. Having Angelenos stop flushing the toilet does nothing for genuine water scarcity in the areas where it's dire.
|
|
AlanDoak
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
|
|
Barker Dam had water in it on my last visit to Jtree. Your welcome LA.
|
|
Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
|
|
Klk writes:
"You could drastically cut DWP and MWD water demand simply by banning non-native grass lawns."
How is that possible?
Every time I get a good carpeting of native vegetation going, The County comes by and issues me a "Weed Abatement Notice".
|
|
John M
climber
|
|
not sure I agree with removing land from ag. Perhaps the solution is to do more to promote less wasteful irrigation techniques, and perhaps regulate what crops can be grown. One way to regulate would be to charge the true price for water delivery.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!