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Mimi
Trad climber
Seattle
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Rimmy, you must face the fact that you're worthless dung and should go pester a different forum.
And TradIsMoronic: the jury is in regarding your open support and allegiance to Rimmy. Therefore, you too, must be eliminated.
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Thanks for your sage advice Russ. Coming from such a seasoned veteran, I have decided to keep my day job.
Didn't you post as Susan Peplow yesterday?
Raj, you are much funnier than I. But LEB says she does not believe in god, so she may not be able to help you. Try reading the first few pages of Gray's, then ask her some questions.
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Teth - that was classic. Much better than the Susan/Russ sidewalk parable.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand, Man.....
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yawn... you two dik heads are soooooo fukking lame.
It is so sad you need to communicate across this forum with each other. How does it go so bad????
Seriously... get some kinda help. Somewhere far away.....
locker style edit..... I hear a ticking...... 3..... 2..... 1...... {{{{{boom}}}}}
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WBraun
climber
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Both of you are fools Trad and rajmit. Sure you can talk a stack O sh#t here. But you don't even know.
Once you step too far over the line, talk like that will definately get you clocked in person.
There is a good history of it here in Yose. I suggest you stop.
Too bad that's all you can do, is talk a bunch of cheap bullsh#t.
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Mimi
Trad climber
Seattle
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Gracias, Mussy!
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WBraun
climber
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Here it is Lois in all it's glory ...... :-)
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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LEB WROTE: "Largo, my "mountains" to climb are different then yours. We cannot control one another's destiny or force eachother to travel down our own particular chosen paths. At best, we can spend some time together at the cross roads."
No, LEB, this is just a slick, quasai-new agey justification not to get outside your comfort zone. No one's asking you to become a climber, or to walk that path, only to go ONCE, on very easy stuff, for one half hour.
The thing is you have an IDEA about all of this and so far have taken the matter up in terms of ideas. A shift out of the merely mental would cause another shift that would address the inflexibility of your mental fixation NOT to do anything diferently and to follow the path that your mind has already decided for you. I'm only asking you to step one half of a foot off that path--and you can scramble back to it in a flash, in mere minutes after roping up. You will not die. Stretch yourself in some way that your mind refuses to do and you do yourself a great favor. In many spiritual disciplines the student must everyday do something he does not want to do. It's essential. It's rut busting and drags us out of smugly accepting that we can direct our own unfolding.
So tie in and report back to us about your experience.
JL
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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"Don't tell me about how to rock climb."
That's very telling, LEB. You only want me to tell you what you want to hear.
You ever herd of Jung and how disowned selves work? The climbing community is presently holding your disowned climber, I'm jut inviting you to take back that projection but the primary self system to which you are identified refuses, and won't be "told" otherwise.
How's that for some psychobabble.
Back to work.
JL
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Roger Breedlove
Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Rajmit, "...If I ever get hurt, DO NOT treat me" seems to state the obvious.
Buzz
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Roger Breedlove
Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Lois, I think there is a gigantic, cosmic punch line to this thread, but I cannot put my finger on it. Something about your infatuation with climbers becoming only a vehicle to meet and greet John. I guess it worked.
However, you are in luck. John is very modest and down-to- earth, but he did tell us something about his writing in a “Largo Appreciation Thread" about 1 ½ years ago:
“Jesus, you guys are too kind. I spent all day yesterday flying back to LA from Venezuela and return to see this thread, which is very appreciated. Many of those stories you guys mentioned actually took years to write.
‘Here's what I meant by "nobody cares." I've never bothered to publically explain any of this but here goes–first drafted with all my usual typos because I've got to get on the freeway and drive to work.
‘Even though I started climbing when I was 16, I was already writing stories and studying lit. I did the whole shebang, with college and grad school in humanities and kept cranking out stories as I went along, always identifying myself as a writer who climbed not a climber who wrote. Naturally I studied all the classic folk who wrote interesting stories taking place outside the arena, so to speak. I liked Proust and Maupassant and Wolfe and Hardy as much as the next guy, but Ernest H., Conrad, London, Kipling, Melville and the like seemed closer to home. I read all their stuff countless times but the guy who taught me the most, by far, was Borges.
‘Each of the later took their actual lived experiences and used them as a springboard for stores that, while notfactually true, contained an emotional texture, visceral directness as well as characterizations that furnished an experiential encounter that somehow, someway, felt not only authentic, but awesome. Twain was another giant who did the same, salting in humor to hop up the thing (Chandler did likewise with hard boiled crime fiction, Voltaire with historical stuff, Aristophanes with classic plots twisted this way and that).
‘Anyhow, from the very start I drew from real people and real experiences and went where the story took me. I was never trying to serve up "lies" as facts, because I was never interested in facts, rather experience that felt authentic and somehow valuable, or at any rate, worth writing.
‘What didn't matter, then and now, was the whole glorification of the players involved. Who did what and how great he was, cha cha cha. The thing I cherish most about all those years of adventuring is not being able to go to a trade show where I will be recognized as a big fancy dude, but the experiences I shared with friends, none of who cared all that much about how well I climbed or kayaked or whatever.
‘I exaggerated too much in the early years because I wasn't sufficiently connected to deeper material and had to thieve my way through stories with humor and hijinks. Now I try and keep things simple and direct and plain and just lay it out there.
‘But I'm still not interested in trying to create icons or heros or stars. Mostly I try and have fun, handle heavy material with some buoyancy, keep it natural, and for the thing to resonate in human terms.
‘Gotta hit traffic now and come what may . . .”
JL
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SammyLee
Trad climber
Memphis
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Lois, That you would write about John - " I hear about your feats and accomplishments and I think "Oh that's nice. These men (and some women) have done some very great things in this area. It's nice to know such talented and accomplished individuals."
Is exactly WHY we want you to climb a bit. Climbing is not and can not be like art appreciation 101. One must touch it, taste it and feel it to know it even a bit. Studying climbing without climbing is like a blind man studying oil paintings.
I live in a world of 99.99% words and .01% rock and I love John's words as much or more than anybody. But what he has done on the rock... gee how do I say it? Un Effin believable. Astounding. Amazing. Brave? Beyond understanding. Strong? Uh, like superman. Talented? Like Tiger Woods and Dan Marino put together.
And you know if you post in a golfing forumn, Tiger is not going to read it or respond to it. We on the other hand, communicate with John, (Long and Bachar) and tons of others who are the TOP people in this field. Lucky us. Really.
I would like to say I don't care if you climb or not but I can't because I do care. I want you to know in your heart what my heart feels on fine rock with trusted friends.
One day in Key Largo my son and I were SCUBA diving. I look out into the distance and see a huge Bull shark. I WANT my son to see it. Nothing at that moment is more important. I practically grab his head and turn it so that he, for the rest of his life, can say, "I once saw a ten foot Bull shark heading straight for me."
Find some pretty rock to match your pretty self. Be with some folks you like and trust and step up. It's not garanteed but there is a good chance, something amazing will happen.
Either way, keep posting because I like what I know of you and enjoy you presence here. Still a shame, you won't join me and Baba in the Valley next week. We'd show you (and your husband) a good time.
And geez Dirt, kill the tomatoes maybe?
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SammyLee
Trad climber
Memphis
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Well Lois, maybe you're right. It's just that in all my adventuring, I've never found anything that is as pure as rock climbing.
I mentioned SCUBA, and I like deep, dark, scary wrecks. Screwing up can mean death quickly. But even then, I almost always have at least sixty seconds to figure things out. (the average time I can hold my breath) On the rock, I may have one half a second to make a decision that could cost me my life or save my life. It's for sure not common but it can happen.
When I lay down to sleep each night, my mind wanders back to a favorite wreck off the coast of South Florida. She lies in the sand at 127 feet. I see myself splashing into the cool, clear blue water. Looking down, the suns rays stream into purple. I exhale and start to sink down. Deeper, cooler, darker.
Halfway to the ship, I begin to see her outline, her double steel masts standing. Suddenly, within one moment, all she is, becomes my world. There is not one single thought in my mind except her. Truly, not one. As I land on the deck in front of the wheelhouse, narcosis hits like two tokes on a good fatie. I am there, and nowhere else. I want to stay forever.
In about 4 minutes, I am sound asleep. If, on the other hand, I start thinking about my favorite routes, my heart pounds and my blood races and it takes a looooong time to get to sleep.
Love em both, but rock's high speed, low drag.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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This is my lasst enrty on this, LEB, but you've gotten yourself into some deep water here by drawing associations to other sports that are only in some small aspect like climbing. Certainly all things that are potentially dangerous share certain things, but climbing gives a different kind of experience for several basic reasons. First, everyone has a genetic inner prohibition against embracing heights. Second, most gravity sports are so fast moving that you can't really settle into the exposure and feeling of gravity. Climbing is slow, so you get the full dose. Third, everyone is a natural climber and you discover this in the doing. You remember, from eoons past, how to climb. It's a certain kind of dbody knowledge that unless you encounter it, you'll never understand it.
So basically the man is totally right--you can't approach climbing like you can an art appreciation course, and you simply can't get your mind around climbing in any authentic way till you tie in and cast off. The idea that you can, or can taste the gist of it walking in a desert or a jungle or wrestling sharks is simply an idea, not nearly a fact.
I find it interesting why you should steadfastly refuse the experience to join the many folks who have offered to take you out, just as I find your justifications equally odd and mental.
It's as if you've made up your mind about Paris without having ever gone there. I guess what we're all saying is that Paris is different than you think, and it's worth visiting for a spell, especially if you think it's not because as is, it's all thinking, incorrect and self-limitied thinging masquerading as free choice. Embracing an experiecne, as oppoosed to a mere idea, is good for the soul. Why not go against your own tendencies, especially those tendencies on which you have placed the most virtue? If you're really that interested, risk a little and find out for yourself, then you can tell us instead of having to imagine and contrast to what you think are valid associations but which many are trying to politely tell you are not. Karl can walk you through it with grace and ease. You won't die.
JL
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SammyLee
Trad climber
Memphis
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Speaking only for myself Lois, it is not about control or pissing on anything. It's about something I love so much and is so unique amongst all of the many wild and fun things I've done in 52 years on this wonderful planet.
John is right about one thing. Karl (and plenty of others) could help you experience this wonderful thing. That's all. If you tried it and didn't like it, well ok, that happens. Not to many people I've met but it does happen.
And really, I'm not trying too hard to get you to do it. But it's hard to imagine someone who knows as much (mentally) as you do (or soon will)and have never tied in.
While I'll never know what you felt doing anything, I'm not in your mind or heart, we are all human and share some common experiences. What I am saying is that rock climbing, for most humans who try it, is really, really different from anything else us humans do.
I guess you feel differently from me, but if Tiger Woods wrote me a letter and said, "Sam, I want you try golf. Here's why. Now I've got this great guy, Karl Baba, who can show you how much FUN it is. Give him a call and set something up." I'd be on the phone in 2 seconds.
You see Lois? I don't believe in god because there is no evidence to me that god exists. I DO believe in superhumans because I've seen them with my own two eyes. (everybody roll their eyes, esp. the superhumans) but damn it, what I see some humans do, is super, if not supernatural. They are as different from me as fish are different from me. They might as well be from another planet.
JL is not my idol. I won't worship what others call god so I am sure not going to worship a man, super or not. But if John Long told me to "make the move man, you can do it." I'd make the move, without a doubt.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Okay, I'll contradict myself and respond to this but I swear this is it.
I don't care if you climb or not. What could it possibly mean to me? But apparently climbing means something to you or you wouldn't put such effort into trying to understand it by way of the unusual posture of steadfastly refusing to actually do any climbing. I sensed that control issues were a flashpoint for you,
that's why I repeatedly suggested that you ease off on trying to control what your mind was telling you what and what not to do--in this case, exercising your will to NOT go climbing, then layering on a bunch of associations that you thought--but didn't actually know--gave you some insight about what climbing/climbers was/were all about.
I'm sure you have had many transcendental moments swimming and peak bagging and so forth, but so long as you prohibit yourself from tying in and casting off with the many folks who have kindly offered to take you climbing, the essence of what you seek to understand will forever remain just a thought and a speculation. And that's totally your own business and have at; however if your interest was truly beyond the superficial level of merely thinking and ruminating about climbing, you'd surely take someone up on their offer. This is a very gracious offer from a very gracious community--for world-class climbers to just say, come on out and we'll go. You'll likely never find that in any other adventure community.
So you see you've put youself in a conflicted position: you want to know, but you refuse to participate, participating being the only way to know. You've backed youself into a corner on this one, LEB, but you can climb yourself out in a second.
I could go deeper into the psychology of all of this (hooked up with the power of refusal) but I'm supposed to be working, so I should really get back to it.
Like I said, you won't die, and it won't be a self betrayal to change your mind and just go climbing. What do you have to lose, and what do you have to gain? If you rally want to know--GO! Get past yourself, tie in, pull down.
PS: And watch yourself--you have already decided in your mind what climbing is about, so you will probably be tempted to decide in your mind what the climbers who want to take you climbing are like as well--predicting the outcome and all that jive.
JL
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Dear, little do you know. I would get to talking with Karl and arguing about poltics, etc. .
Little do you know... No, you wouldn't do that. It would be you, Karl and the rock, that's it.
If you have a chance to climb with Karl, grab it with both hands. It would be a special experience that you would cherish forever.
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SammyLee
Trad climber
Memphis
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Lois, you write
"Karl could well have the patience of Job but, trust, me I would push him over the edge so to speak and either he or I would not come back. No, Sammy, that was not one of your better ideas."
Meet us at the gas station, Yosemite, intersection of Highway 41 and Forrest Drive, 8:30 am, Sunday. I'll bet my government pension all three of us will come back, all smiling! Just kidding, unless you really want to do it. In that case, I'll bet you a dollar.
Karl better have the patience of Job, he's taking a 5.6 jug hauler, stick-arm, old fart up some wild rock. And man, I've never looked more forward to something than this. To climb with world class climbers, in the MECCA of climbing, in the cool air. Just wow, wow, wow.
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Apocalypsenow
Trad climber
Cali
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Damn, LEB...and to think in one of your earlier post you wrote,"I was not intending on commenting here."
How do you find the time to type all this foolishness?
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TYeary
Mountain climber
Baldwin Park, Calif.
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LEB
I believe it was Hemmingway who said "there are only three real sports; auto racing, Bull fighting and mountain climbing. Everything thing else is a game. ' I think that's pretty close anyway.
I've been climbing for 33 years and change. Nothing , for me, has ever come close,( save being a parent.) I think Largo has you pegged, LEB. This assurtion is based on "doing it". Something you apparentally won't do. Why NOT step out side yourself and give it a go? I have never run with the Bulls so I don't really know what it's like. I can imagine, but I'll know for sure when I do( it's on my list ). Stretching and growing is pain. But it's worth every aggravated nerve ending. But if you don't try it, you will never know.
Tony
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