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Levy
Big Wall climber
So Cal
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Mark & Richard, IMO you need to get over this. I mean it happened a frickin' QUARTER CENTURY AGO!!! This is so September 10th!
Maybe the actions of some of the locals were crude but just as you had the freedom to choose to climb a route in a style of your own choosing, local climbers(who are better versed in local tradition), are free to choose their form of protest of dissent. It's just plain sad that their chosen method involved the levels of desecration described above( chopping & smearing with excrement). While I don't condone their method of expression, I concur with the sentiments. Ed Cooper was an outsider who came to El Cap intending to establish his own route. He too, was ostracised by locals who did not agree with the style of how he chose to establish his route. What happened in 1982 was no different. Anybody arriving in Yosemite today intent on establishing a new route with ZERO El Cap experience can rightly expect similar treatment.
Let me ask a pertinent question, who is responsible for upholding local traditions? Is any visitor free to make up their own set of ethics & standards when they arrive at a climbing area with it's own ethics & standards. If I go to the Gunks, is it OK for me to establish a new route with bolts all over it even though the Gunks are known as a no bolt area? I think not! Had WOS been established by a team with more El Cap experience, we would not be still debating this tired event.
Forgiveness & letting go of the demons of the past is what's needed here. Let the hourglass of time provide the distance to see clearly how WOS is viewed by contemporary parties. Let's agree to disagree & move on! Bring on the repeat ascent!
Levy
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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...I didn’t feel that they respected the valley, the cap or anyone who has put their time in.
Same thing was said about Burton and Sutton, right? Someone fill in the blanks for me, I'm from the more modern "bolt war" generation....Abortion Contortion et al
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dryfly
Trad climber
utah
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accountability = being responsible for your OWN actions,not the actions of others.
Im sure this wont go over well but ....Why did you guys not stand up for yourselves back then? You all mention numerous threats , yet it seems like you did nothing except try to get others to intervene on your behalf. In this not so perfect world a man sometimes needs to defend himself,this has been so since the beginning of time.
Maybe if you had just started swinging, win, loose, or draw it would have ended in the parking lot years ago.
The more you allow the bullys to push, the harder they will push. Like it or not, its reality. Some times you have to push back.
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MSmith
Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
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elcapfool,
So when you come across a closed haul bag that has been on the ground less than 24hrs, you've got no problems opening it and taking out clearly valuable items since its "abandoned gear"? When someone on-line seems to indicate that they did it, asking whether they did is "whinning"?
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the Fet
climber
A urine, feces, and guano encrusted ledge
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The idea that "locals" or someone who has "paid their dues" has any more right to Yosemite than anyone else is utter bullsh|t. It's a national park, we all have equal rights to it. Yes experience can be important to help keep people from making mistakes, but in this case these guys came in and put up a valid route. They didn't need to be locals, or pay their dues. That is pure territorial, ego driven nonsense. Being on the SAR team allows you to live in the Valley and I respect the sacrifices needed to be on that team, but that does not give them the right to determine who climbs what. As Warren said, they were marking their territory, that’s all, they weren’t protecting some ideal of style, because they didn’t even have enough knowledge to know the style of the route.
These guys came in a put up a hard route. They have compared that route to other hard routes in justification of it, but I for one have not read much bragging in to their TRs. No more than many other and less than a lot of TRs.
I bet if the crap and chopping had been the end of it, this would have all been over long ago. Instead lies have been told for years and these guys want the truth to come out to clear their names. That is fully justified and to be expected from any self-respecting person. I commend them on their perseverance to right this injustice (and only slightly fault Richard for the tone of some of his posts).
No one has the responsibility to help them learn the truth, but I would think as a caring human being you would want to help. They are only asking for information (and have demonstrated second hand knowledge will be treated as such). They have demonstrated they aren't going to go kick someone's ass, only talk to them and hopefully get healing all around. But you get more flys with honey than vinegar so they might not get much help on this forum at this point.
Since when is wanting to right a wrong against you whining? Richard isn't just saying poor me look at what happened to us, he's saying we were wronged and want to right it, and keep it from happening again to someone else. He might not get what he wants, but to fault him for trying is easy to say, but imagine if this had happened to you. Would you just let it go?
One of my points in a post in one of the previous threads is that Richard and Mark could have done things differently and perhaps things wouldn't have gotten so out of hand, but they shouldn't have been required to. Although they did try to be reasonable and talk to people, they could have done more, e.g. encouraged people to watch them climb, repeated another hard el cap rout first, etc. BUT that doesn't in any way justify what happened. As an analogy: a woman who was raped should think about her actions that led to the rape being possible (she was out alone at night, she didn't have mace, etc.) and modify her behavior to help prevent a future rape, and also to feel she has some control of at least part of her situation (rather than just fully being a victim, she can accept some responsibility and feel she has some power rather than just feeling she had no control over her own life). So yes there are things victims could have done to prevent crimes against them and it's good to examine them, but once it again it in no way justifies the crime. The crime is the fault of the perpetrators.
I too would like to see an article in Alpinist, or another rag. For one to clear the air and somewhat counter years of lies, and two at the heart of all great stories is conflict and this story has it in spades, so it would be an interesting read for a lot of people.
Since Richard didn’t address this post, I will, because it gives a good summary of all the bullshit thinking of the detractors.
Author:
Craig Shaw
We saw a team was a few pitches up on this fu_ken apron.
TRANSLATION: A SLAB CLIMB IN NOT WORTHY, I LIKE STEEPER STUFF SO YOUR ROUTE ISN’T VALID, YOU SHOULD CLIMB WHAT I LIKE TO CLIMB.
Then we found out, they hadn’t done any climbing in the valley before and they decided to do this first ascent, and I didn’t feel that they respected the valley, the cap or anyone who has put their time in.
TRANSLATION: I DIDN’T FEEL THEY RESPECTED THE VALLEY, EVEN THOUGH I HAD NO IDEA WHAT THEY WERE CAPABLE OF, OR IF THE ROUTE WAS RESPECTFUL OR NOT, HERE I AM PAYING MY DUES ON THE WEST BUTTRESS AND I’M JEALOUS THEY HAVE THE CAPABILITY TO COME IN AND DO AN FA, THAT’S NOT FAIR, THEY SHOULD PUT THEIR TIME IN LIKE ME
At the time I had only been climbing for two years. But, I had great respect for who had come before and the stone. I feel they didn’t.
TRANSLATION: I FELT THEY DIDN’T, EVEN THOUGH I HAD NO PROOF OF THIS AND DIDN’T TALK TO THEM ABOUT IT, SO I’LL JUST JUMP ON THE BANDWAGON AND BELIEVE ALL THE B.S. WITH NO PROOF
As their 38 days went on, mostly on this apron. They were afraid to come down. And I don’t blame them. If I was to rape this stone, I should be scared.
TRANSLATION: I DECIDED THEY WERE RAPING THE STONE, AGAIN WITH NO PROOF. EVEN TODAY WHEN IT IS ABUNDANTLY CLEAR THEY RESPECTED THE STONE AND SO WANTED TO MINIMIZE THEIR IMPACT SO MUCH THAT THEY WERE WILLING TO TAKE MULTIPLE LONG DANGEROUS FALLS TO REDUCE THEIR HOLE COUNT, I’LL CONTINUE TO CLING TO MY LONG HELD BELIEFS AND RIDICULE THEM BASED ON LIES.
You’re a class act Craig.
And people wonder about why they haven't let it go after 25 years, the B.S. still continues, it is here and now.
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Levy,
The Gunks, being privately owned, is perhaps not a good example. You would be expected to follow the land manager's rules after paying your access fee. (And there are a few bolted slabby sections there.)
Perhaps what you are trying to say is that people who have been around for some time have "ownership" rights accruing to them, despite the fact that the land is public. Or in particular, the "hardmen only" who have been around have some sort of ownership rights.
Of course, this is not written into any sort of "climbing constitution", so there is no official process for modification of the rules. So if one were to follow the unwritten rules, then the rules of course can only change when some "interloper" so decides.
That is just getting too funny! Is self-appointment popular only amoungst climbers? Anarchy is ok, as long as nobody else anarchically fails to follow your rules...
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MSmith
Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
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Duece,
I think it's hard to defend Grossman by arguing that WoS was indeed ‘over bolted’ by comparing it to the average EC route since WoS is the ONLY (sorry for the caps) route Grossman mentions.
>“At the time, there was no doubt to any climbers doing first ascents that we could easily "create" an A5 lead by enhancing a flake here or there, but the challenge was to find the piece of rock that offered continuous natural difficulty. … When faced with no natural placement, the accepted standard was to drill a rivet.”
I think the WoS modifications has had a lot of coverage on previous threads. For the record, The Sea clearly doesn’t jive with your description. The revered Hook or Book has drilled enhancements which are orders of magnitude beyond the undetectable modifications on WoS. Without them the pitch would have been A4.
Regarding the Fish hook, it may well be that Fish with the help of you and others concurrently developed it. What I know is that we showed Fish our hook from the trunk of our car in September of 1987. Fish seemed really interested and didn't say "Oh, yeah, that looks like the ones I've already designed." Later the Fish hook shows up on the market in the same width, thickness, grade of steel, and shape. The only difference is the tie-off hole.
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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I gotta admit if someone crapped on me and my stuff, I'd have to at the very least attempt to kick their a$$ for it. A little too high on the indignity scale for any other response.
Seems kinda stupid for these guys to try to right a 25 year wrong online, let alone in a forum where all the original players aren't even in residence.
My fav above was where they said Fish seemed like a guy with a sense of humor. Sorta like saying Pavorotti seems like an okay singer. Bwa-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha.
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Elcapinyoazz
Mountain climber
Anchorage, Alaska
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I'm stealing this phrase: "...you push it too far, and end up decking in the talus of public opinion."
Brilliant. Probably the best thing in this circle jerk trainwreck of a thread.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Quick question for Mark/Richard:
Why didn't you patent the design of your hook prior to showing it to people?
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Holy frig!
I *still* haven't had time to read this thread and look at it!
In response to Dingus directly above, he's right. I think in some ways Mark and Richard were simply too gentlemanly. They are practising Christians - like me - but in my observation are far better at "practising what they preach" - unlike me. To some they would have appeared "easy pickin's" and "weak" targets, which is certainly not the case. Richard and Mark are two of the strongest men I have ever met, in every sense of the word. Their integrity is beyond reproach, rants notwithstanding.
Sometimes when you are wronged, Jesus calls on us to "turn the other cheek." [Note that I said "sometimes"]. And in Ecclesiastes or Lamentations [I always mix those two up, and my bible is buried under climbing guidebooks somewhere] Solomon writes that "there is a time to fight, and a time to lay down arms." There is a lot of wisdom in these approaches. They are extremely difficult to balance. The practising Christian has to choose when to fight, and when to shut up. I don't want to get into a discussion about this because it's not really on-topic, but suffice it to say that there is a balancing act that is difficult to do, and Christians in particularly are often called to shut up. But only a fool would mistake silence for weakness.
Dryfly writes below concerning revenge. Emphatically this is not what Mark and Richard want! Mark and Richard want nothing more than to reconcile with the people who have hurt them. If an apology were offered, believe me, they would be the first to extend their hand in friendship. They continue to extend the Olive Branch, not merely because as Christians they are called to, but because they want to. They will be the first to forgive. They merely want closure.
In the past, I have chosen to shut up when false accusations were hurled against me. Accordingly, I got further accused - because when I chose to say nothing, people assumed I was guilty or was hiding something simply because I chose not to respond at that time. I waited my time, and when I felt the time was right, I answered every single accusation as best I could.
The Christian angle may be just one of the reasons Mark and Richard appeared to "keep quiet for all those years". But in case you guys have missed it, they TRIED to write climbing publications to explain their side of it, but were refused!
This is fascinating stuff, guys - REAL HISTORY. What you have seen here is a FULL-ON CONSPIRACY, a cover-up of epic proportions perhaps never before seen in this context!
Think about it - cover-ups and lies concerning POOR climbing achievements are rampant throughout the history of climbing. You name the mountain, chances are someone has faked their claim of success. What's his name - Cook? - on Denali/McKinley, Caesar Maestri on Cerro Torre. The list is long and noteworthy.
But where have you ever seen a cover-up of a GREAT achievement, where the jealous locals have made the heroes appear as goats? And this is a conspiracy that has persisted for a quarter-century! Climbing publications refusing to publish, because they believed the lies! For twenty-five years, no matter where Mark and Richard turned, they were considered frauds, cowards, and cheaters! Even climbing textbooks dissed them! And all this despite Richard having written a frickin' book about the climb!
And you guys wonder why Richard wants to rant a bit? Don't you GET IT? Don't you get the depths of their hurt, their amazement? It is conciliatory and patronizing of many of you to write, "why don't you give it a rest?" Shame on you. If any of you had chosen to walk even in a mile in Mark and Richard's shoes, you would have developed a greater heart of compassion.
It's time to fight this time, and good on Mark and Richard.
Some of you are counting the posts in that other non-climbing thread and watching as it approaches 600. Big deal. It is contrived, and maintained through boredom. The Wings of Steel debacle is maintained through voracious interest. I wish somebody would count the posts concerning Wings of Steel. If you find Part IV, Tom linked the other three parts. There are several OTHER posts, too.
I predict there will be over a thousand posts concerning Wings of Steel on McTopo before the dust settles, because I - the Diabolical Dr. Piton - have not yet BEGUN to rant! I am just getting warmed up! You ain't seen NOTHIN' yet!
Bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!!! Stay tuned folks, you'll see it here first. The greatest anti-conspiracy in the history of climbing, revealed before your very eyes almost live.
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BoKu
Trad climber
Douglas Flat, CA
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> Why didn't you patent the design of
> your hook prior to showing it to people?
My guess is that he'd rather climb than spend 500 hours a year in court.
Here's my favorite patent resource. It's saved me countless hours and heartaches:
http://www.tinaja.com/patnt01.asp
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dryfly
Trad climber
utah
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Dingus, After the shitting it was already to late for defense. Revenge is all thats left at that point, and that is a different road to go down.My responce was more directed to before it got to that point.It is my understanding that they were directly threatened face to face before that. During this threatening would have been the time to defend, or if to terribly out numbered, maybe later that night at the point of their choosing.
Either way ,to do nothing after the threats,and go on about your thing, is only to invite more of the same or worse.Right or wrong ,it is reality.See above post about bullys.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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DMT -- you said "1. Go to the rangers (I don't know if they did this or not), but I wouldn't really respect that course of action. What happens on the school yard stays on the school yard, ya know?"
Funny thing... The "locals", or however they prefer to be referred to went to the rangers and got them involved. Since they were SARS guys the rangers were going take an obvious side, and did.
I've got to disagree with the overbolting thing, Deuce. I'm assuming you're saying 3-4 bolts per pitch, *not* including anchors. Even if this *is* what you're saying, I'd agree with a statement more along the lines of this was the "talked about" norm, or maybe the "norm expected from others". In conversations I've had with people doing early ascents of these hard routes, there were more than 3-4 holes per pitch, quite commonly. As well, there were considerable enahncements done on some of these routes. But, seems OK, since they were put up by locals. Regardless, if you think about the hole count for Wings, consider the fact the each belay had 4 bolts, which strangely is seen on other aid routes too, saying more than 10 a pitch is simply a falacy.
Speaking of the "enhancements"... I have to say I really respect Richard and Mark for being honest enough to say, "ya know, we knocked a crystal or two off of two or three hook placements." F*#k, no one would have known otherwise, had they have said nothing. The "enhancements" can't be seen. But, again, even on so-called, all natural El Cap lines, put up by locals, or someone who is part of the clique, where there are actual enhancements, painfully obvious to all, this is OK...?
I hate to say it, but no one ever said that doing the right or admirable thing would be easy. And, as I said before, people don't change, only their colors do... Mark, Richard, while I think you can plainly see that there are plenty of people who agree that you were wronged terribly, and think more of you, or that you were definitely the bigger of the group to handle things the way you did and still come out on top, you will never change the people who committed the cowardly acts that started the whole mess.
I'm not going to jump on the "get over it" bandwagon. What I *would* say is to, while on this quest, remind yourselves of the progress that *has* been made. The truth is out now. You can see a tidal shift in the views of a lot of people. Seemingly, the more reasonable, open-minded persons. Persons involved in the cowardly acts, which started this whole thing, have been openly accused. It's doubtful they will ever have the sack to do anything appropriate.
Women have been battling the "old boy club" for decades... It's not really gotten them anywhere. Sure, they get some things on the surface, but things, for the most part, still continue on as they were before. I really don't see much difference there than with the Yosemite old boys club. You can certainly hold your head high in the knowledge that you put up one of the proudest routes on The Captain. Bolder than anything around. Possibly harder in a lot of ways. Certainly, when considering the adversity you faced. If that is a measure of hunger and "wanting it", well you wanted your route more than any prior or since.
You can hold your head higher in the knowledge that when others sunk to incredibly low levels, you only stood taller. Knowing the two of you, I know how important this is to you. I think, when it comes down to it, knowing that you held to your standards and personal ethics is probably one of the biggest things to you personally. Certainly, more important than what others do or did. I know there was opportunity and temptation to do otherwise. But you held fast to your principles and beliefs. Honestly, there's a small part of me that wishes the Doc visit happened, Richard.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that you guys being the people you are, internally, is what made this climb happen. Most others would have bailed. You're proud of it, so f*#k the losers that gave you sh#t. You stand taller than they do on a daily basis and, certainly do, when you look in the mirror. Let them rot in their own personal hell.
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Landgolier
climber
the flatness
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Ok, so let's take a pause here and ask Mark and Richard, what do y'all actually want right now, at this point?
I ask because it seems like anybody who could ever be convinced that a two furlongs of scary hooking could make a good route has been convinced that you guys did a good route, and all the accusations of bad style have pretty much been cleared; at minimum, nobody is disputing anything about y'all's story of your style. As I understand it, pretty much all that's left is a positive ID of the maltese mud flamingos.
So seriously, in like 100 words, bullet pointed and no caps lock, what is it you guys want at this point?
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Hey The Fet: Thanks for putting Craig Shaw in his place. I couldn't have put it better. The guy drops into a long series of threads - obviously hasn't read them - and decisively proves he's still as ignorant now as he was then. Well done.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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"bullet pointed and no caps lock"
LOL! =D
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meok
climber
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25 years ago.......if it makes you feel any better, i made the accused villians sweat that infamous night by letting the air out of the tires of the getaway car. i think they had to drive back on their rims.
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nvrws
climber
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dryfly, you sound like a war monger with the fight the bully stuff. They did better than fight, they said f em and climbed the route on their own terms in their best style possible.
I agree with others.. "proving yourself" in the valley prior to a first ascent smacks of elitism. It is/was narrow minded and lacks understanding of the global climbing community. I remember recieving shouts of "hangdog" while working a route in Toulomne a year or two after Watt's "introduced" it to the Valley. HMMM, I guess I just didn't have enough Valley time to have paid my dues yet. How much time did/does one need to spend in the Valley before they can put up a new route? How many walls do they {need} to have climbed? Fact: these lads paid their dues the minute the picked up their knotted up, sh#t on ropes cleaned them off and headed back up. WB, you say 'let it go' but you continue to contribute to the thread. You continue to clarify and defend your points and yourself. Ya see its just not that easy, is it?
As for Mark and Richard 'dragging' wos up after all these years.. they didn't start this thread, they have contributed as they have seen fit to do. I must admit Mark's restraint is impressive on the same order of Richard's passion.
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Like many others I find this whole history to be quite interesting. Many of you are calling the WoS boys whiners. Try and put yourself in their shoes. First, they had every right to climb El Cap, anyone does. Any perceived misdeed or lack of respect they showed was apparently to the fragile egos of the valley hierarchy at the time. Do you really think the rock of El Cap cares?
If you feel that they (WoS boys) showed a lack of respect to the rock, how would you prove such a thing? When RR thought Harding overbolted he set out the best way he knew to prove this by climbing Hardings route. That would appear to be the way to show that you were in fact up to the challenge of showing more respect to El Cap. But the ones who sh&& on the ropes and threw sh&& bags onto the WoS guys did not sack up. They were unable to rise to the challenge and climb the route. They were unable to prove through their own actions that the WoS guys screwed up. Could it be that this enraged them further? How could these young guys who had never climbed El Cap before come here and out climb us, the valley hierarchy? How dare they? The mob type mentality would dictate that these young guys were wrong and that they be punished. It could only be more infuriating that the WoS sh&& perpetrators be pissed cuz they couldn’t climb WoS. The perpetrators failed to adequately and definitively prove that the WoS guys screwed the pooch. How infuriating is that?
The reality of any ethical considerations is that it is buried in our own minds as to what is right and wrong. Our perceptions have been introduced by climbing literature, stories, ascents and experiences, but it is purely a subjective and human thing that forms our opinions and prejudices.
I would hope that most climbers have had to dig deep into their own soul at times to overcome their fears and perceptions to become successful. These experiences of my own are highlights of my life history, no matter how inconsequential they may appear to others. It is not the route grade or difficulty that matter; it is the experience and human emotion that pervades the consciousness. These experiences can sometimes more easily be seen in the new climber when they are doing something that they did not previously see as possible. Now imagine if you will, that your special moment was not only sh** on, but advertised throughout the climbing community as being wrong, disrespectful, and written up in a Big Walls How to book as being a disgrace. This injustice went on for a quarter of a century, despite the fact that nobody, in 25 years, with all of the advances in wall climbing, has had the balls to actually prove that your ascent was in injustice (well Pete, I almost bought the beer for you and your buds attempt).
It is not difficult for me to relate to the WoS guys angst and frustration with this. Had anyone gotten into my face the way that madbolter reported in his previous posts, I doubt that person would be in one piece still. Think about someone doing to you what was done to these guys and then think about your reactions, feelings and sense of justice.
Now, as the WoS team tries to seek the truth, they are thwarted. Virtually all of the “Big Wall” experts were born and bred in Yosemite. They were part of the valley scene and or still are part of it. That is not a wrong or bad thing, but the stories about the WoS ascent have been told and re-told and these stories have become a part of the consciousness (see madbolters quotes from previous threads). So the WoS boys cannot appeal to the “Big Wall” experts, as most of these experts seem to have a prejudice learned through the years. What is the prejudice based upon? Clearly, the fact that nobody has ascended the route shows that nobody has walked the line and that this “prejudice” may in large part be due to ignorance and our own human predisposition to believe what we have heard through the years.
Werner you may be right about madbolter being crazy. Think about how crazy frustrated and mad you might be if it seemed as though the world was shi&ing on your accomplishments but nobody wanted to actually see the truth. I would be crazy mad too. For most of us cannot forget what the rest of the human race is saying about us.
I wrote this before Deuce posted. I admire what you did for bigwall gear and climbing, but you prove my point. You are basing an opinion on the route without much knowledge. While that in and of itself is not a bad thing, coming from an author of how to climb big walls carrys a lot of weight for some folks and that is the problem. I believe that it is called “objectivity” in literature. The point is, if you or any other big walls book author wants to single out and diss a route, perhaps climbing the route may be the most valid way in forming that opinion. Clearly, when RR set out up the Dawn Wall he had formed an opinion of the route. His opinion of the route changed as he climbed and he was honest about reporting first his prejudice and then his newly formed opinion after experiencing the route first hand. Here and now, the “big wall experts” have prejudged the route without actually climbing it.
Fet I agree with your assessment of Mr. Shows posts. Climbing El Cap after two years of climbing is paying his dues? Hahaha…whatever.
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