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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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I hear bowling is seeing a resurgence of interest.
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Climbing and the mountains are anarchy.
Perhaps ideally, but the NCNP is a heavily used area that is managed to balance Wilderness values with practical resource oversight.
Don't forget that by your admission you are lucky to have survived your early over-ambitious trip to Forbidden. Enjoy the luck for what it was and don't project your luck as a prescription for others' learning...
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MarkWestman
Trad climber
Talkeetna, Alaska
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That was hardly my intention, Todd.
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michael feldman
Mountain climber
millburn, nj
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"Then that person simply has no business being in the mountains."
Ledge Rat, with all due respect, this is not a fair statement in response to my concern. If someone tells me that a road exists, and I take my car as a result, and it turns out the road is washed out so my mountain bike would have been better, do I then have no business being there? Obviously if I knew the road was washed out, I would not have taken my car. It's not a matter of whether I am capable or not. The same is true with bolts. Imagine showing up to do a sport climb with draws and a rope and then finding out that all the bolts were cut. Does that mean you do not belong rock climbing? My point is simply that there should be some type of notice that this is being done so people can adequately be prepared. My point is NOT that the bolts need to be there in the first place - on which I am not taking a position
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MarkWestman
Trad climber
Talkeetna, Alaska
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Michael, one thing that I think is worth considering in this particular case is that there are several viable options for descending Forbidden. The east ridge, in fact, is in my experience both safer and faster.
I actually think given the tat situation and crowds that the bolts were reasonable and should have been left in place, but, their being gone did not in my opinion leave anyone hung out to dry. Forbidden was safely climbed and descended by hundreds of climbers for over 60 years before bolts appeared. The bolts (one set of them) were only in place for six days.
I otherwise understand your concern, I'm just not sure it applies in this case.
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steve shea
climber
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No! Notices are not needed. What is needed is for you to be fully prepared. You need to take plenty of slings and gear and the knowledge to use them for safe anchors. And, perhaps a small bolt kit. Then you could replace said bolt. Problem solved. The solution for the ascent and descent should be your efforts and responsibility not someone else's. Who would run/pay the notice patrol? You need to move in the mountains as if your are the first. No umbilical cords. It will be much more rewarding for you as well. .02
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Jim Clipper
climber
from: forests to tree farms
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It's wilderness. You're on your own. As it should be
"Then that person simply has no business being in the mountains."
Guiding anyone? I don't have the experience to say, and much was said just above. Still, maybe the government just isn't that well equipped to manage some of these things.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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It's wilderness. You're on your own. As it should be.
Unfortunately, Mark, it's not just wilderness, it's Wilderness. A designated Wilderness in the United States is one of the most tightly regimented environments in existence. If by "you're on your own" you mean you have the freedom to get yourself out as you see fit, I respectfully disagree. We've already had to deal with ill-considered bans on new fixed anchors in various wilderness locations. It's not at all clear to me that a plethora of tat-infested horns creates a better wilderness experience than one competently-placed bolted anchor.
Unfortunately, the Wilderness Act, as interpreted by some bureaucrats, ignores the existence of humans, and our tendency to flock to popular routes. The existence of "official" climber's approaches in Yosemite Valley, for example, strikes me as much closer to the goals of preserving a wilderness feel than the proliferation of approach trails that necessitated the use of more formal pathways.
To me, the comment that rings true is the one that south of the Canadian border, we make the absence of common sense an essential element of wilderness management.
John
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MarkWestman
Trad climber
Talkeetna, Alaska
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If by "you're on your own" you mean you have the freedom to get yourself out as you see fit, I respectfully disagree.
Thanks John, I should have been clearer. I did not mean to imply that we should ignore regulations nor established ethics. What I meant is that in the mountains one should have a mindset of self sufficiency and being prepared mentally as though no one had been there before.
It's not at all clear to me that a plethora of tat-infested horns creates a better wilderness experience than one competently-placed bolted anchor.
Let me state that I fully agree with this above statement.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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I otherwise understand your concern, I'm just not sure it applies in this case.
Agreed
If the things that you expect aren't there (e.g. bolts), then any competent mountaineer should still be able to fluidly manage the problem without missing a beat.
If not - then by definition you are not competent and have no business being there.
I've managed to climb dozens and dozens of routes without knowing a damn thing about the climb, summit or descent except that "It's there." I will admit that rapping unknown terrain is perhaps my worst personal nightmare and I try to avoid it whenever possible. See the thread I started about the "worst rap anchors you've ever used."
But if you're whole life falls apart because some bolts are missing, then you have some seriously-misguided notions about mountaineering.
If you need a topo with every foothold, bolt and tie-off point marked - and if you can't manage a climb without such beta - then take up knitting or stick to the gym.
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H
Mountain climber
there and back again
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One of my points was that if there are not well placed bolts then there will be tat everywhere.
Another point was that every climber started out not being a climber. One can not become a competent mountaineer without first learning how to become one. I respect anyone willing to go into the unknown from what ever starting point. That is how we learn. That is how we become competent.
It takes more courage to climb a peak as a beginner than as a seasoned climber. You could be doing everything right, have all the knowledge available, and still get into trouble. That is just the way it is.
I don't have the right to say who should climb and who should not.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Jan 24, 2015 - 02:00am PT
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1, ,BUMP, and H say R you ? . . .
I'll ask a mouse.
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