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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Jun 11, 2013 - 02:12pm PT
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did you see what they are doing to Bradley Manning? 3 years in prison (before trial). 23 hour a day in solitary. Talking of death penalty. Trumped up charges that in no way fit the crime.
Of course there is always the possibility he in on a CIA mission, and all the press is just put out in order to get the trust of the Chinese. In the world of spooks, you can never know in the end who is who.
But as to the wire tapping, I think the only way for civil disobedience to bring this sh#t down is if we all start peppering our emails and phone calls with words like "bomb", "terror", smuggle, timer..... You get the idea. 300 million false alarms a day would shut them down I'm sure. I wonder if the Prism system will pick me up now. lol
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Dropline
Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
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Jun 11, 2013 - 02:13pm PT
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Norton, what is wrong with you?
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canyoncat
Social climber
SoCal
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Jun 11, 2013 - 02:18pm PT
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People who "leak" classified information are traitors. No more, no less. The whole point of having secret or top secret clearances are that you swear to keep the information limited to those with proper clearance. Do you really want to live in a country where each individual decides on their own which "secret" is worth keeping, or which should be shared?
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Jun 11, 2013 - 02:24pm PT
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Do you really want to live in a country where each individual decides on their own which "secret" is worth keeping, or which should be shared?
Do you want to live in a country where good people sit by and watch the government abuse their power? If your boss asked you not to tell as he pocketed charitable donation dollars, would you speak up? Who is the traitor, the one doing the will of the democracy or the one spying on citizens?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jun 11, 2013 - 02:27pm PT
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Dropline
Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Jun 11, 2013 - 11:13am PT
Norton, what is wrong with you?
Heat stroke, 100 here today
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Dropline
Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
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Jun 11, 2013 - 02:35pm PT
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Norton, Canyoncat, et al.
Read 1984 if you haven't already done so.
A brief line from the 1984 wiki description:
"Nineteen Eighty-Four is a dystopian[1] novel by George Orwell published in 1949. The Oceanian province of Airstrip One is a world of perpetual war, omnipresent government surveillance, and public mind control, dictated by a political system euphemistically named English Socialism (Ingsoc) under the control of a privileged Inner Party elite that persecutes all individualism and independent thinking as thoughtcrimes.[2] Their tyranny is headed by Big Brother, the quasi-divine Party leader who enjoys an intense cult of personality, but who may not even exist. Big Brother and the Party justify their rule in the name of a supposed greater good."
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labrat
Trad climber
Auburn, CA
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Jun 11, 2013 - 02:35pm PT
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"People who "leak" classified information are traitors. No more, no less. The whole point of having secret or top secret clearances are that you swear to keep the information limited to those with proper clearance. Do you really want to live in a country where each individual decides on their own which "secret" is worth keeping, or which should be shared?"
Totally agree. He signed on to the process. Punishment will happen if he is caught. Senate and Congress and President(s) all know it's going on. If you don't want it to happen elect different people......
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J man
Trad climber
morgan hill
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Jun 11, 2013 - 02:50pm PT
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Cannot make the public exposure of nsa criminal activity also a crime.
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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Jun 11, 2013 - 02:54pm PT
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“I'm sentimental, if you know what I mean
I love the country but I can't stand the scene
And I'm neither left or right
I'm just staying home tonight
Getting lost in that hopeless little screen”
Democracy is coming to the U.S.A Songwriter: COHEN, LEONARD
Problem not only Edward Snowden but there a few others in his field that can see what is in store for the future of the U.S.A. and it is not Democracy but Tyranny since it is written on the wall.
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canyoncat
Social climber
SoCal
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Jun 11, 2013 - 03:08pm PT
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I can only speak for myself. I've worked in positions where I held top secret clearance. I will take that knowledge with me to the grave. I didn't even discuss it with my parents or spouse. I've never been in the position of having to support something I didn't believe in, or believed was morally wrong.
If I did, I would do the honorable thing and quit my job (and still keep my damn mouth shut). If it was so egregious that I felt the system was being abused, I'd have reported it through the proper channels. If that didn't resolve things to my satisfaction, tough sh#t. Your option is to not "be a part of it". Quit. Stop sucking at the government tit you so hate. If what the government is doing is so wrong, and everyone who works on the program knows it's wrong, and they all quit, then the program won't function will it? But, what about people who won't quit? Hmmm, maybe this isn't a big, bad government issue, but a greedy people without moral compass issue?
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Dropline
Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
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Jun 11, 2013 - 03:13pm PT
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Canyoncat, have you watched Snowden's interview? He doesn't seem to be motivated by money at all, and he does seem to have a very stable moral compass.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Jun 11, 2013 - 03:21pm PT
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Why would she bother? All she does is bitch about sh!t.. Not one positive post. Ever
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Jun 11, 2013 - 03:25pm PT
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This is a tough one. As I said earlier, I think the govt is abusing its power beyond what it needs to, and being less transparent than it could be.
And to give Snowden some credit, he does seem to have been a bit more discriminating than Manning about what he disclosed. Manning included docs that named actual sources...putting those people in danger. Snowden disclosed a program that he didn't agree with. And one where the disclosure doesn't probably immediately endanger anyone.
But it does seem to me that he has done a bunch of exaggeration about his personal situation and his likely level of access/control. That makes me a little suspicious. Going to China is also a little dubious.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Jun 11, 2013 - 03:26pm PT
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I will take that knowledge with me to the grave.
I bet you will.
Right to the slaughterhouse.
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J man
Trad climber
morgan hill
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Jun 11, 2013 - 03:26pm PT
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The fact that vacuuming American phones and internet by this STRATCOM/NSA
program had to be approved in secret by the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance
Court (known as FISA), created to provide secret judicial oversight of the
intelligence community actions outside the USA,
indicates that the system of checks and balances installed to prevent abuses
and overreach does not work. In other words, ending the surveillance will
not be sufficient. The bad law, the process, and the people involved that
allowed total domestic surveillance systems to be brought online
-- a creation of the so-called Patriot Act, a truly Orwellian nomenclature
must be overhauled as well.
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crøtch
climber
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Jun 11, 2013 - 03:43pm PT
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"What NSA criminal activity?"
The DNI provided testimony before the Senate indicating that the NSA did not collect information on millions of Americans. At a minimum could you concede that Snowden has exposed possibly false testimony and an attempt to mislead elected representatives that are charged to oversee intelligence activities?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jun 11, 2013 - 03:51pm PT
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The DNI provided testimony before the Senate indicating that the NSA did not collect information on millions of Americans. At a minimum could you concede that Snowden has exposed possibly false testimony and an attempt to mislead elected representatives that are charged to oversee intelligence activities?
although addressed to Hedge, I certainly would concede your statement
Snowden set off a needed transparency bomb at the very least
he will pay for it, he knew that when he did it
I am glad he did it so we can have an open debate about it, and I don't see how he actually harmed anyone by doing so
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Dropline
Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
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Jun 11, 2013 - 03:53pm PT
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Hedge, again you see everything through the lens of right and left, conservative and liberal, Republican and Democrat.
This is not a partisan issue. Take your friggin' funny glasses off!!
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