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Captain...or Skully
climber
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Jan 12, 2013 - 09:49am PT
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I'm glad you're not dead, Jim, but discipline NEVER relaxes. You know this.
Don't be a bonehead. Yep, it can happen to anyone, if you let it. I like you much better alive.
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10b4me
Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
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Jan 12, 2013 - 10:50am PT
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Jim, were you the first to rap, or your partner?
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hossjulia
Trad climber
Where the Hoback and the mighty Snake River meet
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Jan 12, 2013 - 11:00am PT
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It would have been a real bummer to read this accident report.
Really glad you are humble enough to share here.
Not trying to be a smartass, but is your near vision not so good? Because there is NO WAY I would have rapped off of that!
(I too carry tied slings for this and I pretty much always use a fresh one to rappel off of, taking the worst of the tat with me. But I have not had to rappel off of slings for a very long time.)
Thank you for the heads up, glad your still with us man.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jan 12, 2013 - 11:30am PT
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not being much into doniniolatry, i'll ask my question a little more pointedly. jim read something that seemed to influence an unfortunate lapse in judgment. i think we need to pick the thing apart.
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cragnshag
Social climber
san joser
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Jan 12, 2013 - 11:43am PT
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How about testing the rappel anchor this way:
1. Always climb with a partner at least 50 lbs heavier than yourself.
2. Make them rap first.
3. If the rap anchor fails (and your ropes and partner are now at the base of the cliff), call Werner to come pick you up in the heli.
Problem solved. No extra webbing needed.
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hossjulia
Trad climber
Where the Hoback and the mighty Snake River meet
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Jan 12, 2013 - 11:44am PT
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know what? THAT^^^^ was not funny, I know someone that his happened too and I have a feeling you are referring to that incident azzhat.
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cragnshag
Social climber
san joser
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Jan 12, 2013 - 01:36pm PT
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Sorry if I offended, Hossjulia. I do not know of anyone who this has happened to.
What I do know is that all but one of one of my climbing partners outweigh me. And yes, I would send them first. Of course there would be a temporary gear back up to be removed before I went down.
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hossjulia
Trad climber
Where the Hoback and the mighty Snake River meet
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Jan 12, 2013 - 01:50pm PT
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Is cool cragershagger, but this really did happen, although I don't think the brother that was killed outweighed his sibling.
Helicopter off, Valley, all that. Werner knows.
I'm friends with the survivor and I tend to be overly protective of my friends.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Jan 12, 2013 - 02:14pm PT
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Heh, actually its alpine climbing technique to have the heavier climber (could be one with more gear or a pack or just a fatty fats like me) go first while the anchor is backed up, then the lil guy (or gal) goes second and pulls the backup, if the back up might be vital for another rap station.
Kind of like glacier travel and crevasse crossings.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jan 12, 2013 - 02:15pm PT
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Tony: always the guy who looks like he's sucking lemons...
I know it is always hard to post up something I did which could be seen to be so obviously stupid in retrospect that at the time seemed entirely reasonable. The responsibility of surviving the stupidity seems to be honored by fessing up...
Jim Donini didn't have to post this incident up... that he did speaks volumes about him and it serves as an important lesson to all of us: that we all can make mistakes of judgement no matter our experience.
Independent of any "hero worship" I am glad he survived, I don't wish injury or death on any climber and I celebrate their survival. I also think that "lessons learned" are a very good way to teach people... the many times I've read ANAM thinking "how dumb, but how close to that I've come!"
so pick the incident apart... what's your analysis...
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Jan 12, 2013 - 02:17pm PT
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Ed brings up a good point, because for myself I've been at points where I've been so beaten and tired and cold and wet that I've made really idiotic decisions. Sometimes it was just a warm day in joshua tree but I was distracted or let my ego get ahead of us...
I definitely wouldn't trust that webbing, but I say that sitting behind a keyboard not having to go through what Jim did to get to it, both on the climb and in his past experiences in life.
As far as the incident itself is concerned, I am trying to visualize HOW this webbing is around the block? Is it pinched underneath a rounded spherical thingy or is it literally just wrapped around it like a bow? COuld affect how easy it is to visually inspect, and sometimes the less convenient to fully inspect get less inspected (not implying that Jim didn't inspect it, but as an educational takeaway).
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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Jan 12, 2013 - 02:17pm PT
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Whew! Glad to see that our very own, ST Resident-Part-Time-Curmudgeon is still intact.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Jan 12, 2013 - 02:29pm PT
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I want to second Ed's remark about Jim's public-spiritedness in posting about this episode. He could have kept it to himself and avoided the snide Monday-morning QB-ing.
Jim's recollection about slings holding up well might have been from this result posted on the BD QC Archive (http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en-us/journal/climb/all/qc-with-kp-from-the-archives-1#VRG);
December 2, 2005 - Testing Old Gear from the VRG
FYI-sling ratings are 22 kN
Minimum carabiner ratings are 20 kN
Typical sport climbing falls are in the 2-5 kN range.
I pulled a bunch of mank gear from some routes last weekend at the gorge (DCMD, Fall of Mouse). I'm never really concerned about the biners from a strength standpoint- more from getting a sharp edge and "sheathing" the rope. The biners I tested were WORKED, but all values were still above the original product ratings (all over 24 kN).
The slings were very sun bleached and dried out-I'm pretty sure some have been up there for 3, 4, or even more years.
The results were: 16 kN
, 11 kN
, 11 kN,
5 kN. Obviously getting well into sketchy land.
The morale of the story from KP's point of view-carabiners and slings are way burlier than people think [emphasis is mine], ie. leaving a route fixed for a while isn't the end of the world. As I said, the biners developing sharp edges is usually my big concern. But it is important to remember that it IS possible for slings and carabiners to break-slings from being excessively sun bleached and dry and/or being worn from excessive rubbing on the rock.
From Effect of outdoor exposure and accelerated ageing on textile materials used in aerostat and aircraft arrester barrier nets, S. K. Pal, Vikas B. Thakare, Gaurav Singh, and Mahesh Kumar Verma, Indian Journal of Fibre and Textile Research Vol.36, June 2011, pp 145--151 (my summary):
Nylon webbing exposed under controlled conditions on a roof in New Delhi lost half its strength in a year. Most of the loss, 35%, occurred in the first month. Webbing treated for UV resistance didn't have quite the same initial rate of deterioration, but still ended up at half-strength after a year.
Only one of KP's samples had lost more than half its strength, and that even at 1/4 strength it probably would not have failed during a rappel. Jim's sling seemed to be little more than cohesive powder just waiting to achieve its particulate state. It must have been in place for quite a while, or else the conditions were particularly harsh, even compared to New Deli summers...
As an aside, UIAA tests on climbing rope UV deterioration found, among other things, that the loss of mechanical properties of the fibers was roughly proportional to the loss of color, so beware of bleached slings.
On descents where time is not very critical, I've taken to backing up all in-situ rap slings for the first person, regardless of how good the material appears. If the slings are even a little bleached or crunchy, I add more material and, depending on how degraded the original appears, either keep it or cut it away.
I rarely set up fixed rappel sling anchors, but when I do, I've started using two independently tied loops of retired (but not at all trashed) 8.5mm half rope. Rope is much better than webbing because the sheath protects the core from UV deterioration, which the Indian Journal tests suggest is immediate and rapid.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Jan 12, 2013 - 02:36pm PT
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When all is said and donini, he's no hero: He's a PBJ on wheat in wax paper.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Jan 12, 2013 - 04:49pm PT
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hey there say, donini...
finallyyyyyy, i got a bit of time to READ more here...
was curious about your 'new second birthdy' :)
and the saw the surviving... 'silly me'... thought it was
about a vacation time, for a birthday rerun, :O
man oh man... was a WHOLE lot more serious...
the ol' 'supertopo title-wave' through me, a tad, in the wrong direction...
i am so very glad things are well with you, and that you are safe-through-this, :O
thanks for sharing the 'SOUND MORALS' of this story...
oh my.... i remember reading accident reports on how folks need to check this stuff, and keep praying for folks to be safe...
god bless to you, with your new and WONDERFUL second birthday!
and may the trail continue to be sweet for you and your loved ones!!!
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Jan 12, 2013 - 04:55pm PT
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hey there say, ed.... had not been able to read all the MIDDLE HERE..
but i did see the start, and after my post, i DID see your post, here, nearby mine...
as to this quote:
Jim Donini didn't have to post this incident up... that he did speaks volumes about him and it serves as an important lesson to all of us: that we all can make mistakes of judgement no matter our experience
three cheers to donini for love his fellowclimber enough to share this with all... the best way to learn, is to share what not to do, as well as, to share WHAT to do... and work them together well...
acturally, that is what good parents, do too...
and they, in whatever fields they have come through (whether the dad or the mom, and ecompossing all their OWN childhood years) they have the much to say in many experienes... all a waste, though, if never shared with their children...
well, as i said, i missed a lot in the middle, but here is this:
donini, thank you so very much for sharing what will be another 'steppingstone' to help reinforce a 'let's safe someone's life'
:)
man oh man, am i glad you are still here, to love your family and be
loved by your buddies, IN person....
happy new birthday, once again...
:)
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Jan 12, 2013 - 05:07pm PT
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hey there say, hossjulia... i just saw this--i am fairly sure that i know what you mean, by that:
as to your qoute:
[quote]Not trying to be a smartass, but is your near vision not so good? quote]
during THESE LAST FIVE YEARS, i have had, and have seen sooo many odd situation that come up, to do eye-depth perseptiong, due to the far-sightedness that happened to not only ME, but to MANY folks (starting up sneaky, as about age 30, and getting very strong, into the 40's and onward)...
it causes the most oddest 'think you saw, did not really see fully, and 'brain tricks' that you'd NEAR not believe it, 'til it begins to dawn on you after far too many 'series of events'...
meaning the brain will out of habit,
register that something is 'what you are use to seeing' when in fact, it is 'slightly out of focuw' ... this will cause you to reach for SOMETHING and miss or overshoot and it will fall, spill, and be missed by your grip...
this always affeects what we look at... as in what you suggested, as to the edges of the material etc... or a host of otherthings as well...
a very strange occurance that happens to all of us, as we age...
NOTE:
'couse, younger folks have a whole other ball game...
in a hurry, take a too fast a glance, or just assuming things...
so many 'brain tricks' due to that too...
well not sure if that helps anything, but the good ol'
DOUBLE CHECK AND RECHECK, no matter how old or young we are,
or no matter the situation, sure is a 'good safeguard',
:)
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Jan 13, 2013 - 11:13am PT
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Boobs aren't the only thing that deserves more exposure here. Between politics and sex, mere life-and-death issues for climbers don't seem to stand a chance. Bump for those who may not have seen this yet.
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DanaB
climber
CT
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Jan 13, 2013 - 11:32am PT
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There was a post on (I think) Mountain Project about an identical incident. Climber in Red Rock backed up a rap anchor that was one old, bleached sling. Leaned out and the sling snapped, caught by the back-up.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Jan 13, 2013 - 11:59am PT
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I think the report Jim is citing was a well published and circulated test of webbing - maybe 10 years back at this point. Everyone read it and could cite it. I think the cam resling business spiked afterwards.
I don't recall all the details, but the gist was that Spectra was more suseptable to UV, and tubular seemed to maintain it's strength longer than expected, even when sun-bleached - maybe about 1/2 its strength as Jim seems to recall.
While they also did some controlled exposure, they were basically pulling webbing off random climbs - no controls - kind of a crappy and inexperienced study overall if you happen to be an engineer type and do this kind of thing for work. Maybe someone can find it on Google. Like I noted above - once you see a UV bleached sling - how do you know it hasn't been UV bleached 100x over - ready to turn to dust and blow away?
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