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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 30, 2006 - 10:12pm PT
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Gotta agree with you Wheels. When one takes recent events into context sure seems as though some form of pre-climb group dialog should be an element of the protocol of tackling ANY climbing project subject to noted traffic.
As far as the Sherpa per diem, that is shameful exploitation. Look at what the clients PAY in comparison to the (sometimes ultimate) contribution that is made by their assistance.
I can't see them fairly receiving any less than 10 times that amount along with insurance for their families.
Some of their loads must be worth far more than their current expedition pay in its entirety. Absurd.
I might have to look into this firsthand (BTW when is the bikini team scheduled?)
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wombat
Trad climber
NY, NY
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May 31, 2006 - 06:25pm PT
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Lacking adequate high altitude experience, I will avoid making statements of what I would have done in the situation. I like to think I would make a choice I could be proud of. Others on this forum have the requisite experience to make this sort of statement with better perspective than I. I would however, like to offer one personal observation and one item for broad consideration.
Having witnessed two young men die far too early (one of which I had no ability to help, the other we were not able to save)there is no summit worth the cost of life. I am not sure who would look back from their death bed and say that a summit would hold higher value than a rescue. To me, such an "achievement" would be forever tainted by the whatif.
With all deference to conventional wisdom and those who possess it and profess, there seems to be a growing body of evidence that illustrates that there is a possibility of rescue from nearly anywhere. This includes examples such as Lincoln Hall and those cited by Conrad. I would not suggest that this necessarily conveys a moral obligation on other climbers to always attempt a rescue. It has been well documented already the obligation of the rescuers to their own safety and there will be situations (and perhaps most of them on mountains such as Everest) where a rescue is not feasible with acceptable risk.
BUT, I would suggest that there is a moral obligation to consider and evaluate the situation without relying on the conventional wisdom. This could include discussion of rescue scenarios in expedition plans. If the eventuality has been discussed, the power of group think may be lessened. The consciences of the party members (in guided parties) may be freed from the obligation/dependence of the client/guide relationship to make an independent appraisal. Parties would have the right to make a decision ahead of time to not stop if that reflects their priorities.
There seem to have been enough "back from the dead cases" from above 8000m for the conventional wisdom of an automatic death sentence to be put to rest. So let's drop the crutch of the tough guy sayings that climbers use to protect ourselves and let conscience, creativity and an open mind address each situation on its own merits.
thanks for your time and be true - Michael
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UberBabs1
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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May 31, 2006 - 08:16pm PT
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I'm coming in kind of late and have not read the links, but this thread brought to mind the Kitty Genovese story, which we discussed back in sociology class when trying to understand bystanders and helping behaviors. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitty_Genovese
Regardless of whether this solo climber could have been saved, is there no value to having a human presence to comfort one while dying? Is it morally acceptable to turn one's back when death is inevitable? Is it only expected to help when there is no risk to oneself?
I always wonder about ambiguous situations. If you came across an altercation in progress, how would you know who the initial aggressor was?
That said, I will never go to Everest simply because I am not qualified and have no desire to try to make myself qualified. Time is of the essence at my age and I'd rather spend it performing "roadside gymnastics" as Mr. Twight would describe my preferred pursuits.
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GK
Trad climber
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May 31, 2006 - 10:33pm PT
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"WELLINGTON, New Zealand (AP) - The celebrated Mount Everest climber Sir Edmund Hillary says human life matters more than "just getting to the top of a mountain."
Hillary tells the New Zealand Press Association he was shocked to hear that dozens of climbers left a British mountaineer to die while making their own attempts on the world's tallest peak.
David Sharp apparently died from lack of oxygen while descending from the summit during a solo climb last week. More than 40 climbers may have seen him as he lay dying. Climbers admit trying to radio for help or even stopping to share oxygen. But each one then continued on to the summit.
Hillary and Sherpa Tenzing Norgay became the first mountaineers to reach Everest's summit in 1953."
I'd like to make a comment on Ed Hillarys contribution: He is often cold called by the news media to comment on incidents that occur on Everest or down on The Ice, based on what little information the reporter tells him over the phone right there and then. Its shameful that the media go running to Ed and drag him into stories like this when it's unlikly he would know any more about a given situation than the rest of us. He is often seen to go off half cocked on account of this.
In the case of the Inglis/Sharp story, Ed Hillarys comments were reported the day after news broke that Inglis had said his group couldn't help Sharp and had gone on to summit. Hillary gave Inglis both barrels via the media, and shortly after we all found out Inglis was one of 40 odd climbers to pass Sharp that day but one of the few to stop and try to help.
For what it's worth, David Sharps death was the first one I read about in the general news media even though a dozen other climbers have died before him this season. We only heard about Sharp because Mark Inglis has been in the media lime light (at least here in NZ) because of his unique summit attempt.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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"If any Billionaires are out there and want to fund the Mt E SAR - I'd love to go out there and just move up and down during climbing season. In fact somebody mentioned that the sherpas are $14 a day - seems like chicken feed to keep a dozen teams of 4 sherpas to be there when things go bad."
Great Idea. Actually the peak fee for Everest isn't chicken feed but even if corrupt Nepal politics want's to keep embezzingly it, it would be worth it to increase it slightly to keep rescue more of an option.
Of course, many rescues are most needed in bad weather when it might not be possible anyway. Hopefully rescue sherpas would refrain from suicide misssions.
As for human company. Baah! I'd prefer to die alone than in the process of stealing somebody elses dreams and endangering them by having them hang around me sitting still in 38 below zero weather. When you're far enough gone to be beyond rescue, you're also likely to be beyond comforts like that.
PEace
Karl
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jun 13, 2006 - 12:09am PT
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Lincoln Hall was on the Today Show, on set, this morning.
Looked pretty good for a dead guy. I suppose that some super-alpinists will have to reassess ultimate pronouncements when it comes to being strung out at altitude.
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sandstone and sky
Trad climber
AK
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Jun 26, 2006 - 05:46pm PT
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Karl: "Would I give up an El Cap ascent to help a seriously wounded climber in fair weather? Probably yes.
Would I remain 2/3rds of the way up El Cap to hang out with an unconscious climber who busted his head so far open that I could see his brains and his eyes were wildly unevenly dialated along with multiple compound fractures? Let say I also knew a big cold storm was coming in stat and I was responsible for my more inexperienced partner. Probably not. "
But on El Cap, the summit is the way off.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Aug 28, 2010 - 08:57pm PT
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Only half way through the documentary about this but have already seen the footage of them discovering the still alive climber in Green-boots Cave.
It is heart wrenching. You can see a little movement. But the guy is an unresponsive popsicle and it is 1:00am.
There would have been no way to rescue him.
The climbers themselves were in a serious position with cold and storm.
Props to the double amputee.
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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Aug 28, 2010 - 10:14pm PT
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Everest - Not much sympathy for those who screw the pooch.
...We found out that a Spanish climber that we met earlier on the trip
(named Ava) was severely injured in the icefall when a snow bridge
collapsed. She fractured a few vertebrae, broke her hand and fractured her
tibia. She may have broken some other stuff too, I can’t remember. We felt
sorry for her for about 5 seconds until we found out that when she fell she
was not clipped in to the fixed lines that were set up for safety
purposes…because she wasn’t even wearing a climbing harness. HELLO????
Apparently she was able to walk out of the medical clinic unassisted, so
apparently she will be just fine (as soon as she raises her IQ a few points).
http://www.kepplerspeakers.com/Alison_Levine_Everest.aspx
FILE UNDER: GET A CLUE
 Numerous times during the trip I heard people chalking failure up to
things other than a lack of proper skills or weakness. If you can’t
perform well in a certain area, look for ways to play to your strengths.
Be creative. I was one of the slower members of the team, and I could
makes excuses all day about how I was the smallest/lightest, had shorter
legs, could not carry as much weight comfortably, etc…but the bottom line
is that regardless of the reason for being slower than many of my
teammates, I was SLOWER and nothing was going to change that–so I tried to
find other ways to contribute to the team since I knew I was never going
to be out front breaking trail. People always like to find excuses for
lack of performance–I didn’t get this or that because I am a woman,
because I am older, because I am short, because I am this ethnicity or
that religion or because of some kind of discrimination. Well,
discrimination is a HORRIBLE, awful thing, but sometimes we don’t get what
we want because we just aren’t all that good. Sometimes the guy next to
you is just plain BETTER THAN YOU. Take responsibility for your own
shortcomings and work on getting better rather than always chalking up bad
outcomes to external factors. Think to yourself, “Maybe I just suck…” and
then work really hard at not sucking.
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R.B.
Trad climber
Land of the Volcanic Mud Flow
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Aug 28, 2010 - 10:28pm PT
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Are there any 'Good Samaritans' out there, or is there just a bunch of selfish B*stards?
I would do what I could do if I happened upon such a situation, the money don't mean a darn thing. People come first, not a icy peice of rock.
But I was raised 'mountain rescue' and I would drop 'my' selfish desires and aspirations, anytime, anyplace to rescue someone who needed the help.
Guess that's the difference. RB
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
climber
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Aug 29, 2010 - 03:26am PT
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thanks sullly
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