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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Oct 31, 2012 - 03:19pm PT
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I think many here; who often have the wisdom of "old age", question many of the military activities our govt. gets involved with, and that is our right.
When we question militiary activities we are NOT questioning the role of the enlisted men or the non-commissioned officers. They do what they are ordered to do. We are questioning decisions made by the civilian leadership and the Joint Chiefs. We should question them. As responsible citizens of this country it is our duty to hold them accountable.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Oct 31, 2012 - 03:55pm PT
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Ron, you can vote for a commander in chief that thinks that pissing on Korans is a good idea. I'll be voting the opposite way.
Edit: But you'll have to write-in someone. I don't think a single candidate, whether Democrat or Republican or third-party candidate, would think that letting the troops pee on Korans is a good idea.
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crasic
climber
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Oct 31, 2012 - 04:04pm PT
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I don't think that making it clear we aren't waging a religious war is something to be opposed to.
The other problem is that "war-time issues" is a rather useless concept.
There have been maybe 10 years in the history of the united states where we were not at war or in conflict somewhere.
War-time is the status quo, all issues are wartime and therefore political.
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crasic
climber
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Oct 31, 2012 - 04:08pm PT
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ANY time you fight alkayduh,,,your fighting a religious war in their eyes... Doesnt matter whats in our motives.
Sure, but purposefully antagonizing the other 95% who don't like us, but aren't radicalized isn't exactly good military strategy, no?
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dipper
climber
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Oct 31, 2012 - 04:15pm PT
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A guy I climbed with in the past had previously been an officer on the USS Carl Vinson. He said to me once, "It's a good thing civilians are in charge of the military, because if they weren't, we'd be at war 24/7."
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crasic
climber
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Oct 31, 2012 - 04:26pm PT
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Granted, if they intended for video to get released to the press! Im sure that wasnt the case. None the less that is a military matter that should have been handled in the proper chains of command and not paraded through the media like some circus event FOR ALL to see and get even more pizzed off about.
Agreed, 100%. But when it does get leaked to the press, damage control is something that the military does with the finesse of a rampaging rhino, so may as well leave it to those whose job it is to bullshit their way out of bad situations.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Oct 31, 2012 - 04:39pm PT
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Apparently he did not work up on deck. If he did, he'd then know that we were each and every time we set sail and commenced flt ops.
So people were shooting at you every time you set sail or commenced flight operations? You must not have been real popular.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Oct 31, 2012 - 04:56pm PT
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Uhmm we have been at war 24/7 pretty much my whole life. Even after the coldwar and before 9-11. Certainly since then.
I've heard too many things from various military folks to think that even in supposed peacetime we don't have folks in combat on a regular basis. Plus what The Cheif up there is saying regarding the risk and posture involved in day to day ops.
But jeez we are still fighting a major war in Afghanistan.. Have been for 10+ years now?
I havn't heard too many who have been there who think we are "winning"
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Oct 31, 2012 - 06:52pm PT
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I dunno Ron. There isn't really any situation where that is OK. Pretty much the opposite of the honor and integrity we started out talking about.
Even if the situation was as you describe, two wrongs don't make a right.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Oct 31, 2012 - 09:32pm PT
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I've been doing lots of reading, and shaking my head as I do so...
it's the "thing" about "this isn't a religious war..." that's Bravo Sierra.
It IS to those on THE OTHER SIDE! It's been a Jihad for them over the past 1200 years. They believe in the so-called "conversion by the sword." Either convert or lose your head. And I frankly am not so sensitive to their desires as to acquiesce to them. When I wore the uniform, and it was them or me...sorry guy, but yer gonna die.
One of El Presidente's election promises in '08 was to get us out of Afghanistan; ta-da! We're still there, and losing. All the comments re: "we aren't the World's Policeman" are simply the ravings of the delusional. We ARE, by default. It's what we're doing. do I support it? FUK NO! We really have no business having military commitments on such a massive and Global scale; it's financial suicide to do this. We're borrowing $$$ from China to be the Enforcer.
Maybe I'll stop here before I really get started and unload on many of the simpletons pretending they know something. OoohRah! Army!
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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Oct 31, 2012 - 09:43pm PT
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Good god; I do not even know where to start.
So the best way would be an episode that I experienced a few years after I got back from Nam. That was when the real war really began for a few or even many that returned from that war.
My dad and I went to lunch together with one of his good friends who was Italian in Hollywood where I grew up. I can’t recall if it was on Sunset Boulevard but definitely West of La Brea Ave maybe a half a mile. Taking a guess this would have been sometime in early ‘70s?
We parked on one of the side streets, got out, started walking and as we were approaching the corner to get into the front entrance of this restaurant were a few unmarked cars parked not too far away with a couple guys in them looking and possibility taking photos. No biggie; not the first time I had been photographed.
Anyway we walk in and obviously this isn’t your typical family restaurant, well it was but a different kind of family. All guys, big, all dark suits and dark hair and only one blond head in the group which was me; the tables were or the chairs were filled with them. I did not know if I should smile or just act normal. We sit down can’t recall if I had a beer, Seagram’s VO with a Coke or could have been red wine maybe all by the time I got out.
At some time before ordering, the heads of some of these guys roll and look at my dad’s friend and nod as in saying hello. My dad’s friend and he had a good relationship for many years and even before when I went to Nam would ask me if I need anything like sports events, passes to the “Magic Castle” which I did not hesitate since it was an exclusive club and was for members only so taking women that you were going out with at the time or just dumped and started a new one was a plus in your favor.
Lou, my dad’s friend, asked me how I was doing since he knew I got in a hunting accident from that war. I told him ‘getting better and stronger every day’. He tells a fellow next to us and then the guy sat down next to me. He then asked me about what it was like: killing another person and did it bother me. Told him did not sleep that night and thinking to myself “I just shot and killed a human being” [actually three] over and over and over again until sunlight appeared in the morning. Told him after that no problem and got easier.
When I first walked into the restaurant and looked who we were having lunch with besides us three since it was pretty obvious so I asked him the same question: What’s it like with you guys. Same answer.
I said to him: Yes! I guess war is war but you guys are different, different ideals. He said “not really” but the thing I will always remember and still do today [another story]is what he said after that: “it is about Honor, Respect and Family. “Family being number one”. I then tell him as in so much for not getting respect and honor for us guys returning; He asks me who I served with, he then stands up and looks away towards the other tables and says: Hey! Guys we have a 101st Airborne here in our presence or something close to those words. A lot of them stand up with their drinks salute in Honor and thanked me for serving while others come over and shook my hand.
They all settle down, get back to eating and drinking, and drinks come to our table. He then asked me if I needed a job, I told him that you are not the first group of guys who asked me that same thing question since I have been back and told him; No! I’ve seen enough killing for a while.
That was one group [1] and can count with my fingers [10] on how many that said thanks for what I did for my country.
Okay! Now to address some issues that I have read or comments and take it for what they are.
Getting rained on
Leaving the scene or being hit by a fallen tree
Whining about the conditions put their lives at risk for this particular duty
Politics
Bonds between soldiers and other men
There is a loss of identity in the individual sense when we enlist to serve. We become part of a unit. As we are charged to look after our brothers, so are they charged to reciprocate.
The same thing happens to a climbing team. You do what you can in an emergency, but you also do your utmost to ensure that such situations don't arise in the first place. In serving, you meet all kinds, as you do in Camp 4. But we all seem to have the same problems in life. And we all need to respect each other's opinions as just that, opinions. There is never a single truth.
Independence that a sergeant gets out in the field
Sergeants "run" the army, or that low-level supervisors "run" a company. It's an important role and their organizations would not be able to function without them
Scream and yell first, ask questions later
Respect for an unidentified fallen soldier
Young men and women are much easier to mold into someone who obeys a superior without question
Learning discipline.....but anything, carried to an extreme, can have damaging effects
Do the same people behave in the same way 20 years later in a civilian setting
There is a disproportionate amount of alcoholism, drug abuse and spousal abuse in the military. Rape is a huge problem with most of them being covered up by the long standing old boys clubs that protect each other.
Drinking-drug-abuse
Maybe we could use a few less soldiers guarding dead people during hurricanes and few more soldiers guarding our embassies against terrorists
Precisely why I believe we should have a universal draft with no exemptions aside from medical. If our lawmakers had children in harm’s way they would be a little more prudent in their actions
Defenseless at a consulate being attacked
Sending the lawmakers kids. There would a lot more talking and a lot less bombs
Had a son of CO congressmen come to V1 Div on the Flt Deck. Two days of being on deck, coming to me crying that he was scared shetless then getting a hold of daddy
Failures of civilian and military leadership
Law Enforcement Agencies here in country have a higher suicide/alcoholism rate per retiree than does the military
Not everything associated and attributed with these two great personalities (Honor and Integrity) can always be seen with the naked eye
Recognize all the people who have rushed into danger the past 48 hours to keep citizens safe, including the coast guard crew Chief pointed out, firefighters, police officers, EMTs, doctors, nurses, utility crews, and countless others
Military service dogs honored
They told what they wanted done and you did it. No thinking about "what if" or about consequences. No thinking at all. It's good that you had the commissioned officers
Band of Brothers
I simply went AWOL on the next assignment
As you have already stated: the soldier CANNOT question his superiors- he must follow orders.
Question many of the military activities our govt. gets involved with, and that is our right
Not allowed to divulge so many events/ops
We became a super power by SHOWING that, not advertising that
War isnt policing, and should be fought with the idea that its hell until its over..When its over- over there. If we DONT want to do that weve no business any where near
The senior noncoms are the ones who actually make things work
We are questioning decisions made by the civilian leadership and the Joint Chiefs. We should question them. As responsible citizens of this country it is our duty to hold them accountable
Instead we get a president who penalizes good Marines for pizzing on a koran
Religious war
Video to get released to the press
Option B is to rethink they way were are "fighting". And make it unthinkable by any country to harbor alkayduh that attack us. LIBYA included
Damage control is something that the military does with the finesse of a rampaging rhino, so may as well leave it to those whose job it is to bullshit their
Think we are "winning"
You call that a good marine? I call that a f*#king idiot...
Meanwhile we can watch vids of beheadings of americans
Know lots of.moron, f*#k.head, fascist, racist, as#@&%es, low IQ , psychopath, soldiers
American soldiers doing a f*#k of a lot.more than venting
Stayed tuned but I will address the following next posting.
Some will just have a yes or no, some added comments but hopefully piece it together so you can get a better picture what we have in store in the next years with the failing of America
The above far left says Honor and Country
As or Honor maybe as for Country "These last 15 years been a man without a Country"
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Oct 31, 2012 - 10:08pm PT
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Lostinshanghai-
Good post. The guys and some gals are buried there at Arlington...some have been there since the War Between the States, since it's the plantation of Robert E. Lee. What we need for this Halloween is a Ghost Army arise and deal with all the halfwit politicians/civilians that have filled up that hallowed ground through their greed, mismanagement, nepotism, avarice and other assorted evils.
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Anastasia
climber
InLOVEwithAris.
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Oct 31, 2012 - 10:23pm PT
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Wow and wow... My Dad fought in a world war II before he even hit puberty. It left him a bit distant, difficult to reach and you could sense in him that there was so much more going on in his head. People always knew by instinct that he was not one you should anger, that he was not fully anchored in our reality, not really civilized.
He was the best man I ever knew.
My Dad always kept his word. Never had a reason or a desire to lie, instead he shared his accomplishments and failures without shame. To him it was just existence. He never took shiest from anyone, let alone a mouthy disrespectful daughter. Yeah, he put me in my place regularly. I miss him.
One good thing is when he met Bill, he thought I finally brought a man home who could handle me. Even though I am not the excellent person he was, (I am working on that,) I am fully his daughter. Yeah, poor Bill, I'm a handful and a half.
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rurprider
Trad climber
Mt. Rubidoux
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Right on, John M! I believe in honor and integrity and support our honor guard/military, and have friends who have served at that post, but THAT'S JUST ASSININE to have the honor guard posted during Hurricane Sandy.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Chief wrote: But, you most likely are totally clueless to what I just said.
The other way around.
Impressive post lostinshanghai.
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Tobia
Social climber
Denial
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Chief, those videos are hard.
“it is about Honor, Respect and Family. “Family being number one”
Being half Sicilian and having a keen interest in the factual and fictional history of the mafia; I would have to say the words above are nothing more than pure rationalization for murder. To use honor, respect and family in trying to elucidate murder is comparable to the twisted logic of genocidal killing.
It would be more aptly put as "it is about greed and money" and has nothing to do with honor or respect.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Born_on_the_Fourth_of_July_(film);
Good movie and book
So there are still like a million bombs hidden in the ground and blowing up children and familes in Laos - it still occurs everyday.
Just to temper the military love fest...
Riley
Does not seem right to blame our military for that.
Who issued the orders to go into Laos?
Some of the sickest crap I've ever heard of was how Vietnam vets were treated when they came home.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Most of those bombs in Laos are from Operation Menu initiated by Richard Nixon (Republican).
Edit: But Nixon didn't just wake up one morning and say, "Let's bomb the crap out of Cambodia and Laos!' This was requested by the Joint Chiefs of Staff (the military). They said they needed to do this to win the Vietnam War.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Yes, there was limited bombing and incursions much earlier. The Ho Chi Minh trail wen through Laos, and they would have been crazy not to take action. But most of those bombs are blowing up are and maiming people are cluster bombs that were dropped from B-52's in Operation Menu. This was less targeted and more of a carpet-bombing operation.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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It simply allows the ongoing denial of reality--that's why.
I spent 3 years wearing Army green, and am DAMNED PROUD that I did. And I had to do so under that lying SOB a$$hole LBJ! I clearly recall coming back to the States in 1964, after spending 20 1/2 months in Germany; I was packing all my personal schizzle into a big "hold baggage" container while listening to the radio broadcast of how LBJ had ordered the bombing of Haiphong and mining of the harbor. I jokingly made the comments to my room mates "Have a nice time in Viet Nam, guys!" I now wish I hadn't said that since 2 of them never came back alive from that pesthole. Neither did my first wife's cousin Rick; he was shot in the head on the first day of the Tet Offensive, his first day in 'Nam.
Soldiers weren't very well treated those days, upon arriving home. Spit on, cursed at, and treated lower that dogs in the street. Makes me wonder why my brothers and I did it?
A lot of you other posters are my friends in the climbing world, but this is DANGEROUS GROUND, and HALLOWED for some of us. Those of us who have lost lots of friends and family don't appreciate the A$$HOLE comments.
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