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jstan
climber
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Oct 15, 2012 - 03:08pm PT
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What I don't agree with in your a*#essment is that Obama has completely failed. I don't think that he has completely failed. The republicans have created such a hostile environment in this country that getting anything done is nearly impossible. It took 14 years to turn the country around after the great depression, yet people want the country to be fixed immediately under Obama..
Ron Anderson
Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Oct 15, 2012 - 11:26am PT
John its not just his domestic but his foreign policies that are leading us to trouble.
Ron:
You started a discussion on domestic policies.
Don't change the subject.
Deal with the subject to which John M has responded.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Oct 15, 2012 - 03:10pm PT
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Ron, you have a link from a TEXAS PERSONAL BLOG site
Do you know what a personal blog even is?
YOU could start one right now, it is just a personal opinion.
And IN FACT, what is quoted on your supposed link of "proof" that SNOPES is a "far left"
web site is here proven wrong.
CLAIM: Snopes.com is 'owned by a flaming liberal' with a partisan bias.
First off, it's clear that whoever wrote this piece made it up as they went along. Anyone who has spent even a few minutes browsing Snopes.com knows that the website is owned by two people, not one. They are husband and wife David and Barbara Mikkelson of southern California. This is stated on the website and has been common knowledge for quite some time.
Second, the charge of partisanship is laid without evidence. At no time have the Mikkelsons publicly stated a political preference or affiliation, or expressed support for any particular party or candidate.
Moreover, Barbara Mikkelson is a Canadian citizen, and as such cannot vote in U.S. elections or contribute to political campaigns. In a statement to FactCheck.org, David Mikkelson said his "sole involvement in politics" is voting on election day. In 2000 he registered as a Republican, documents provided to FactCheck.org show, and in 2008 Mikkelson didn't declare a party affiliation at all. Says Mikkelson: "I've never joined a party, worked for a campaign, or donated money to a candidate" (source: FactCheck.org).
Oh, by the way, FACT CHECK.ORG is NOT a personal "blog"
It IS one of THE most respected debunkers of LIES, period
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10b4me
Ice climber
dingy room at the Happy boulders hotel
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Oct 15, 2012 - 03:11pm PT
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Do you know how long it took to turn the economy around after the great depression?
well what year did things start turning around?
sure, WWII jump started the economy, but it had started to turn around before that. once FDR could implement his programs.
The recovery will not be happening under obama and a third world war will more than likely take place. that is my opinion based on the avenues explained above. Nor is it likely to happen under romney either.
WWIII is more likely to happen when a 'pub is president.
so Ron, you admit that an economic recovery will not happen under romney.
nice to see that you acknowledge that
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Oct 15, 2012 - 03:14pm PT
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MORE from FACTCHECK.org
CLAIM: TruthorFiction.com is a more reliable source than Snopes.
TruthorFiction.com has condemned this anonymous attack against Snopes.com and, in fact, lauds the site as an "excellent" and "authoritative" resource.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Oct 15, 2012 - 03:21pm PT
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"...the Western democracies would stay mired in economic malaise long after Japan and Germany were recovering through re-armament."
Yes, wars have a long, distinguished, deadly history of turning around economies, don't they?
Maybe that's Obama's biggest mistake...he's been ramping these wars down, when if he had building them up, we'd have seen a far better economic upturn!
It worked for Shrub...pump up the military industrial complex, keep it insulated from the public, and then reap the political & economic benefits. It worked...until it didn't.
Obama didn't really have such an option, though, did he? By 2008, America was war-weary, and wanted to just get out. Unless circumstances had become very dire, I doubt Obama would have gone there, in any case.
Rmoney, GOP & the reawakened NeoCons...yeah...I could definitely see them resort to the military industrial complex 'solution' to the economy.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Oct 15, 2012 - 03:21pm PT
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"Strange, incomprehensible life.
Year for year, day for day
You move among people and objects.
Some days the sun shines,
And you don’t know why.
You are happy.
Strange, incomprehensible life.
Year by year, day by day
You move among people and objects.
Some days the sun shines,
And you don’t know why.
And you are happy.
You see the beautiful side of life.
You laugh, you are grateful.
You want to leap for joy.
Work is easy.
Everybody is friendly. You don’t know why.
Perhaps you slept well.
Perhaps you found a friend
And feel understood, safe.
You think: That’s how it shouldbe-
Peaceful, profoundly peaceful.
Then suddenly, everything is different.
As if the bright sun brought clouds-
Sadness befalls you, inexplicably.
All seems dark.
You think no one likes you.
In trifles you seek reasons
To complain, to grumble, to envy, to accuse.
You think that is the way it will be forever,
Nothing will change,
And you don’t know why.
Perhaps you are tired. You don’t know.
Why does it have to be that way?
Because we are part of “nature,”
With days of spring and days of autumn,
With summer warmth
And winter cold.
Because we follow the rhythm of the sea:
Ebb and flow.
Because our existence is a constant repeating of “life” and “death”.
If you understand this, you can go on
With courage and faith, because you know:
After every night comes a new morning.
If you accept this,
These ups and downs,
It will help you gain greater depth
And joy."
And choose your leaders wisely. One party in particular has chosen false prophets, "truth" creators and predators as their role models.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Oct 15, 2012 - 03:34pm PT
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"So in the end the only real difference is a lack of class on the lefts part here..."
You oughta try being on the Left sometime...might bring some perspective to your victimhood...
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Oct 15, 2012 - 03:40pm PT
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Ron, whatever you want to call yourself, or whoever you voted for last time...
Do you really believe that the economic 'turnaround' under Obama could have been exceptionally faster under a different (assumedly Republican) POTUS?
This was the deepest downturn since the Depression...no post-WW downturn or recession came close...and it took 8 years of economic policies (built on a foundation created at least a decade or so previous) to get us into that ditch...
Are you sure your expectations of improvement were reasonable? (If McCain had had made exactly the same progress, do you think you'd feel the same way, and be considering a vote for the other Party?)
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Oct 15, 2012 - 03:45pm PT
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Ron....Ron....
Ron.
#1: Post the site that describes this Recovery as the 'slowest ever'. (Blogs or opinion sites don't count.)
#2: There is no comparison between this downturn and any other downturn in history. The closest is the Depression, and though it wasn't quite that bad, even the Depression took a lot more than 4 years to improve.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Oct 15, 2012 - 03:51pm PT
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From your above link:
Louis Woodhill
Contributor
The author is a Forbes contributor. The opinions expressed are those of the writer.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Oct 15, 2012 - 03:58pm PT
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Ron....
Thank you for what your trying to do.
Most of these folks don't think, they just slap each others back and say "right on"
We are all so screwed.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Oct 15, 2012 - 03:59pm PT
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Ron, do you know the difference between Opinion pieces and journalistic pieces?
Granted, it's hard to tell the difference sometimes these days, but generally when a piece appears in the 'Opinion' section, it is probably someone's opinion...
As you know goddam well, 'numbers' & 'statistics' can be tweaked to fit & support anyone's opinion....
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Oct 15, 2012 - 04:02pm PT
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"We are all so screwed."
+1
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Oct 15, 2012 - 04:03pm PT
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You still haven't addressed these questions, Ron...
Do you really believe that the economic 'turnaround' under Obama could have been exceptionally faster under a different (assumedly Republican) POTUS?
This was the deepest downturn since the Depression...no post-WW downturn or recession came close...and it took 8 years of economic policies (built on a foundation created at least a decade or so previous) to get us into that ditch...
Are you sure your expectations of improvement were reasonable? (If McCain had had made exactly the same progress, do you think you'd feel the same way, and be considering a vote for the other Party?)
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Oct 15, 2012 - 04:05pm PT
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If anyone wants a good link comparing post-WWII recessions, I suggest the following compiled by the Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis:
http://www.minneapolisfed.org/publications_papers/studies/recession_perspective/index.cfm
The data comes from official sources, and are generally the most reliable economic data available.
Under any reasonable measure, the 2007-09 recession was the most severe of the 10 post-war recessions. I could say the same about the recovery, though: it is by far the slowest.
It does not follow that a deep recession should lead to a slow recovery. Generally, the deeper the recession, the more robust the recovery. The data tables from the Fed source I cited contain the data showing this. That's why "the last recession was worse" argument makes no sense.
Incidentally, apogee, I was never advocating increased military spending as a sound economic policy now. I was simply pointing out that while the western democracies were still mired in trade wars and ineffectual sniping at symptoms, the militaristic dictatorships were pursuing a policy that had the effect of stimulating aggregate demand.
We tried massive stimulus of aggregate demand for this recession, and it hasn't worked particularly well because, quite simply, we aren't recovering from the great depression. I personally think that the economy will recover more quickly after the election -- regardless of the winner -- because at least some of the major policy uncertainty will end, and business will know where to invest.
John
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Oct 15, 2012 - 04:12pm PT
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For you, John:
Do you really believe that the economic 'turnaround' under Obama could have been exceptionally faster under a different (assumedly Republican) POTUS?
Are you sure your expectations of improvement were reasonable? (If McCain had had made exactly the same progress, do you think you'd feel the same way, and be considering a vote for the other Party?)
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Oct 15, 2012 - 04:19pm PT
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"And questions about McCain have zero relevance. "
That question is every bit as relevant as the consideration of Rmoney as your choice for POTUS.
There is no clear, direct, apples-apples comparison between this downturn and any other in history...both in terms of it's impacts, and it's trend in recovery.
Your concern...along with most of America...is that the economy is not as you'd like to see it, and the GOP's campaign strategy has been to convince voters that Obama has failed, and that they would do it better. (Nevermind the fact that they have been frustratingly vague and non-committal about how they would do it differently.)
There isn't any solid body of evidence to support this, but that's not necessary in politics. Just keep repeating the same message over and over, the base will fall in line.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Oct 15, 2012 - 04:22pm PT
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Yes, I do, apogee. This administration's appointments, regulations and rhetoric were not conducive to investment in anything but crony capitalism. To make matters worse, it squandered its first two years concentrating on Dodd-Frank and the ACA, instead of spending its effort and resources on economic recovery.
I realize Obama's election rhetoric probably obligated the Democrats to move on Dodd-Frank, since his mantra was that the Republicans drove the car into the ditch, and that a lack of regulation caused the problems. In fact, the housing bubble has at least as much relationship to the actions of Dodd and Frank, and misregulation as it did to the Republicans' attempt to bankrupt the Treasury, or to any lack of regulation.
To the extent that business knows that it will be rewarded for giving customers what they want, instead of giving regulators what they want, we will have a much more rapid recovery. If, on top of that, people know that policies are stable, that will add that much more certainty, but this latter point applies regardless of the policies and, in my opinion, dominates almost everything else (unless Taxmageddon takes place). That's why I say economic activity will accelerate after the election.
John
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
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Oct 15, 2012 - 04:25pm PT
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We are tied to many countries around the world due to changes in trade and lending/borrowing in a way that is so different than what we had even a few decades ago.
I don't know that comparing a US recession/recovery to past ones makes much sense, when looking at the state of the word finances we presently face.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Oct 15, 2012 - 04:27pm PT
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"...instead of spending its effort and resources on economic recovery."
Specific examples of more effectively 'spent effort' would be appreciated.
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