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splitter
Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Aug 23, 2012 - 05:03pm PT
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The point I was attempting to make, before I got hammered and accused of spraying because I simply mentioned I was intimately familiar with TZ & WW is that, according to JL's criteria (or whommever wrote the damned article) there are not only very few true 5.11 climbers, but there are few 5.10 climbers. imo. I believe TZ was a good standard for that particular grade
But, for all those who have lead it, how about having the ability to lead Kierkgaard or Niectche? Cuz, if ya found yerself at their base & stairing up at em early one morning, both required that you could do just that and ya better damn well be a well rounded 5.10 climber. To f*#king late to bail, and you couldn't aid them. And back before friends/cams, you couldn't protect them for sh#t, either. The first one, Kierkgaard had one funky, poorly placed 1/4 bolt as an anchor with your partner & the haulbag hanging from it. And ya might start reevaluating yer personal freeclimbing ability somewhere around 75-80 fookin feet out with nothing worth a sh#t, if anything, in and a long way to go. Particularly with yer parner reminding you every other minute, "Poot sumting in or we are gonna die!"!! Cuz that was indeed the case..you fall now, you both were dead.
There were'nt many people qualified (imo) to lead such a pitch back then or now with only nuts & pins (neither of which would be of much help). So, imo, there are not very many true (well rounded) 5.10 climbers on the planet, either then or now (according to the article).
Dave Stutzman (RIP) was, he was the climber who led both of those double overhanging flared chimneys back in the Spring of 1975. The second ascent of those particular beasts. And a spectacular second ascent, imo! And the reason I mentioned TZ earlier, and my intimate relationship to it, was because he was my partner on it. It brought back memories which are related to one of the points JL is making, imo! Being well rounded and the consequences of not being, whilst thinking you are. We were attempting to prepare for SoH's second ascent & particularly those two back to back pitches by doing everything we could manage to get our asses up in the way of OW & chimneys, etc.!
Anyway, if ya recall, i mentioned humility in my earlier post on this thread. Cuz, that is exactly what my experience was, in regards to TZ, very humiliating. And it is perhaps fortunate that I didn't accompany my friend on that route (ended up in the hospital that Spring) cuz, one of those leads would have been mine. And, as certain as I was at the time being that I as a well rounded 5.10 climber, I sincerely doubt that I was if being capable of leading any 5.10 was concerned, cuz that is what they were rated.
Just trying to make it sound real here. Because that is what climbing is, trad climbing anyway, it can get VERY real VERY fast, life and death laying in the balance sort of real.
BTW, some of you must either got a stick or a steal rod stuck up yer ass ya try so hard to look and seem so damn humble, holier than tho, self righteous & sacrosanct, at times. Perhaps it was wortless and i failed in my attempt, but I was attempting to make a point which was related to the OP"s premise (i think)! So what that I mentioned that I had climbed two of the seven climbs mentioned in the OP first post (BFD) it was in direct relation to the point I was about to make before i got slammed for spraying, or whatever. What a slimy bunch of brown nosing suck holes. If it was some grease ball n00b who was the OP of this thread, would have reacted the same way to my first post or even be here forthat matter? Grow the f*#k up!!
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Aug 23, 2012 - 06:37pm PT
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And JLP, theres no "disease" here climbing is what it is - enjoyable at all "grades/levels. That's just wonderful, however this thread is about mastery=climbing some relic piece of crap from the dawn of freeclimbing, thinking you're too cool for words because of it, and claiming everything that evolved in the following 30 yrs, allowing far harder things to be done - is BS. Get an ego check, wankers. Go try freeing the Salathe headwall or something. It's never seen an onsight. Maybe a few more laps on those 11's from the 70's will prepare you.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Aug 23, 2012 - 06:55pm PT
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Yeah, and Jardine almost freed the Nose. So close. You need to do some homework on how those people trained. Also, the hardest thing done on Salathe was the 12- Picture Book. This pitch gives few suiters any problems. It isn't equivalent to freeing the headwall. At all. Not even close. None of these guys (and girls) are wankers, for sure - you are.
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 23, 2012 - 07:00pm PT
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Yeah, and Jardine almost freed the Nose.
Not even remotely close.
WTF are you people thinking?
It's unbelievable what bullsh!t is being passed around these days.
The guy chiseled the sh!t out the place.
You call that free climbing?
You're out of your mind ......
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Aug 23, 2012 - 07:01pm PT
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Werner misses obvious sarchasm. This thread is officially fuk'd.
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 23, 2012 - 07:02pm PT
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OK fair enough JLP
I've been trolled by sarcasm ... :-)
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Aug 23, 2012 - 07:04pm PT
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Want the grade I climb, too?
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
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Aug 23, 2012 - 09:26pm PT
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C'mon old dudes take a breath. You're sounding as grumpy as your age.
This topic is one I find interesting.
There are a bunch of old 10,11, 12, 13 that are still rarely repeated.
The Great Roof 5.13... it just doesn't get freed. Honnold made what he said was a brief effort at it and then moved on. He said it was hard and that Changing Corners was rediculous.
I think part of it is that the young bad asses that are showing up from the gym.... DON'T CARE ABOUT THESE OLD CLIMBS. Heck,many have little interest in Yosemite climbing. Guess what old guys, that is okay.... Get over it. They don't care.
Me, I like the old Yos routes and the new stuff. But because of that, I find that ratings are f'ed up and you really need to just figure it out (climb/risk) and go climbing and stop bitching.
cheers
jay Renneberg
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Q- Ball
Mountain climber
where the wind always blows
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Aug 23, 2012 - 10:17pm PT
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I grew up with the goal as becoming a 5.11 trad guy with my main thoughts at translating that proficiency into mountaineering routes.
I got good at sport/ trad 5.11/12 on established routes. I did a few first ascents in the mountaineering world
But, good lord I would never have been the man to recruit to establish a route on the Trango Tower or in the Valley, it's was a full time job to climb at that level for me! And I can't afford it!
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Aug 23, 2012 - 10:53pm PT
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Lynn Hill showed up after several years on the world cup ckt (plastic, gyms, etc), not much older than Alex, when she freed the Great Roof. What were you doing in your early 30's? I squandered mine telling myself how cool I was for all the 5.11's and aid climbs I'd done in my early 20's.
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Anxious Melancholy
Mountain climber
Between the Depths of Despair & Heights of Folly
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Aug 23, 2012 - 11:03pm PT
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Was the OP's frame of reference ever taken off the table? Have we completely abondoned all reference to our history? Of course we expect singular performances, yet for me it has always been the broader experience that has proven most rewarding. Yes, I struggle with a self perception of being a failure when gazing at those who scale uniquely, yet I also know that they will never apreciate a fullness of life that has only been afforded to those who lead a life based on diversity of experience. Not saying that those so singularly focused lack enjoyment of life, just saying that, IMHO, some paths encompass more rigor and reward, regardless of the YDS grade.
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karodrinker
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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Aug 24, 2012 - 12:49am PT
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JLP, man that must a sucked, squandering a whole decade just thinking about how cool you thought you were.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 24, 2012 - 10:17pm PT
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The original question was asked to get clear on something going into a big project I'm doing with Peter Croft called the Trad Climber's Bible. We've been working at it for quite a while now and it's getting fat as Freedom of the Hills. Seems there's always more to say.
One of the things I was trying to sort out was where the mean average is in trad climbing - right now. Deriving such norms is part of most every serious research project - not to establish how flawless we "old" people are, but to establish some baseline in order to make the conversation as relevant as possible.
Turns out to be much trickier to get a handle on then first suspected. Back when I was climbing 300 days a year, there were few people who were all around trad masters - meaning they could go to any crag, anywhere and immediately be on the hardest stuff not matter the technique. It seems that the norm, the average has not changed that much - not because of how splendid we all were "back in the day," a silly way to look at this conversation, but rather because the emphasis has shifted dramatically.
This is a hot subject for some, who apparently feel lessened or shamed by the question, and point out things having nothing to do with the trad discussion. Some apparently feel I am subtly dissing sport climbing by even pointing any of this out, when in fact I do little more than sport climbing these days and was asking those who perhaps were still practicing what I used to live for, but more frequently, therefore having a better contemporary grasp of where people are at with it.
And if the original list was too Yozcentric, try this one on for size:
El Matador, Devil's Tower
Crack of Fear, Lumpy Ridge
Obscured by Clouds, Suicide
Hyperspace Chimney, Snow Creek Wall, Leavenworth
Bat Crack, Tahquitz
Steppin' Out, Yosemite
Oz, Tuolume
Fat City, Gunks
Crank that list and you're a genuine 5.10 trad leader. Sounds almost tame.
Yippykya . . .
JL
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splitter
Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Aug 24, 2012 - 11:07pm PT
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it's all good, imho!
like a wise man (alex lowe, rip) once said "whoever is having the most fun" ain't that what it is all about, peeps? i hope so. let's all try & get along & show a little respect!
edit: jl, sounds like the "bible" will be a masterpiece! good news for the wayward vagabonds & seekers of truth. a guide & manual for those seeking direction & enlightenment down the path of the tradmaster!
btw, everybody, sorry about the "brown nose" remark i made earlier. i was only half serious (perhaps only a quarter, lol). insignificant & kinda lame, regardless! Peace!
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BlackSpider
Ice climber
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Aug 24, 2012 - 11:31pm PT
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JL: is that sort of list not still too US-centric when it comes to defining what "trad" is?
For instance, would a British climber not have a point if they objected that some of these lists of climbs do not include certain styles of routes/problems which are regarded as quintessentially "trad climbing" on that side of the pond, where the style was effectively invented and romanticized?
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Aug 24, 2012 - 11:32pm PT
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Matador, I didn't know it was so hard. I went to do it once but it was peregrine falcon season or something and we had to do choss routes on the back side. Never really had the chance to go back. I was told I'm way too short to stem it but that it can just be climbed on one side as an 11.a dihedral with thin fingers. Something like that, its been a long time.
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Roadie
Trad climber
Bishop, Ca
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Aug 24, 2012 - 11:50pm PT
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Hey John,
What a lively discussion you’ve opened. Its too bad its taken the turn it has…
I posted a few days ago that the real measure of the climber is more than just walking up to the crag, any crag, and sending at grade X but the ability to send grade X pitch after pitch. That seems to have gotten lost in all the hoopla but I stand by it.
While I’m not familiar with all the routes on your revised list it seems to still be ’short route centric’ and I think you’re doing your argument a disservice. Case in point: Yesterday I did The Harding Route on Mt. Conness with a friend who was in way over her head, we were under-racked and climbing wet, sand bagged cracks under threatening sky’s… you get the picture I’m sure. All chest thumping aside, while only 5.10, it was a challenging day and, for me, much more rewarding than the scores of 5.rad hundred foot wonders I’ve pulled off. Oh yeah, I did free the thing and we did get back to the truck without breaking out the headlamp, just.
Having said that, I failed, miserably I might add, on a .10d slab in the gorge last winter and had to suffer the shame of leaving a biener. However, is the climber who walks up to Astroman, onsights, and the following day gets bouted on The Green Dragon not a solid 5.11 climber. I think you’d have a tough time making that argument.
Thanks for all the entertaining reads over the years. Good luck with the book.
Steve Seats
PS. I think the average climber is on sighting low 5.10, 5.9 slab and ow.
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Degaine
climber
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Aug 25, 2012 - 04:39am PT
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I'll follow up on what Black Spider wrote.
What about climbers from the Alps? There's lots of climbers onsighting 6c-7a+ (5.11b-5.12a) trad climbs in the high alpine environment. US climbers, and especially Californians don't consider it trad since there are a few pitons on these routes, the anchors are bolted on average, and the cracks aren't splitter.
Go to Grimsel, Mont-Blanc range, Les Ecrins, Orco valley, etc.
US climbers tend to think of Europe as a limestone grid bolted sport climber's paradise, but that's far from the truth. Or maybe if every anchor on a route is bolted it doesn't count as trad even if every pitch is protected by the gear one places?
Just food for thought.
Cheers.
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The Alpine
Big Wall climber
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Aug 25, 2012 - 11:15am PT
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As they say: when life hands you 11's, make 11a's.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Aug 25, 2012 - 11:40am PT
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Fck the Britts. Small rocks and too much time on their hands. Alpine rules are a lot more fun than gritsone rules....
Alipne rules = whatever gets you up and down in one piece is all good as long as we live to climb annother day. Gritstone = a bunch of stupid artificial rules designed to get you hurt if at all possible...
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