Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
|
|
^^^ then climbing will be like golf......... you can have it
I find this an incomplete analogy. With golf, most courses are such that anyone can play them, and the handicap system insures that those who want to play a game can be competitive (to a certain extent) even with golfers of vastly different abilities. Perhaps this is somewhat like an area filled with sport-bolted routes.
The analogy stops there, though. Golf is all about self-restraint and self-challenge (in my case, the challenge of controlling my urge to melt down my clubs in my rage at my poor shots). You don't unilaterally have the right to change the course just because you have trouble reaching a green in regulation. You don't chop down a tree just because it blocks your shot.
The problem with adding bolts to an established route is that it not only adds a permanent change to the rock, it changes the lead. Yes, you can choose to bypass the "offending" bolts, but that adds significantly to the mental problems, because now you have to fight yielding to a temptation that wasn't there originally.
Dealing with poor or nonexistent protection had always been part of the leading game before the advent of sport climbing. There are still plenty of places to put up new sport routes. I simply do not see the need for turning a trad route into a sport route -- or vice versa. If the route was originally a sport route, in an area where sport routes are part of the accepted ethic, leave the route alone (other than replacing worn or inadequate bolts). Conversely, if it was originally a trad route, leave it that way, please.
John
|
|
Roughster
Sport climber
Vacaville, CA
|
|
Just to make sure I am not seen as promoting bolting trad routes, I do not support that stance. I just feel like given the direction things are going that it will become the reality eventually due to liability and safety concerns.
We, the climbing community, have created the "bolts are bad" view that many land managers have by people running to them and fear mongering / chicken litte'ing the issue mostly due to personal conflicts. In reality, bolted climbs are no more impactful than other styles of climbing, and in many cases, actually are less impactful. Less removal of vegetation and certainly in the area of "anchors" are clearly the preferred approach at many levels (safety, loss of vegetation, eliminating walk off paths, etc..)
As for retrobolting, once the steel is in the wall, the game is less about the rock and more about the FA'ist. In a world with limited rock, and much prime real estate already developed, I think it is kind of crazy to impose a view of how it should be climbed forever based upon a snap shot in time.
The reality is climbing is subject to social pressures (like concern over safety and liability), popular demand, changes in ethics, logic, and technology. Retrobolting will occur, it is a matter of when, not if. The only other potential I see out there is technology advancing far enough that bolting is no longer required to lead climb routes.
|
|
JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
|
|
Good points, Roughster. Ironically, perhaps, your last point about technology has already taken place on the Apron. As someone who started climbing in Zillertals, I can assure you that doing one of the 1960's era Apron climbs in modern climbing shoes is a much easier matter from doing it in 1960's footwear. What seemed like terrifying leads then seem much more reasonable to me now, even though I was physically and technically much stronger then.
John
|
|
JoJo229
climber
west
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 6, 2012 - 01:50pm PT
|
You guys have good, reasonable thoughts on the issue.
But just to make sure we're on the same page: I'm not really a sport climber and I don't think bolting where there is natural pro makes sense (but I wouldn't pull my hair out over it). I own 6 draws but mostly a pile of trad gear.
I just think where there is no option but to bolt or run it out, the bolts may as well be placed reasonably. Not "every 3 feet so you can clip the next without leaving the first," that's a slippery slope fallacy. It just makes sense to avoid decking, 40 foot slab rolls, a pendulum into a dihedral for the follower, etc...
When we place trad gear, those are the obvious things a smart climber looks for and tries to avoid. Seems like bolters should use the same good climbing technique.
If the FA only placed one piece of gear in a 50 foot splitter, do we all have to do that? Nope, we have a choice on how to protect it.
|
|
east side underground
climber
Hilton crk,ca
|
|
John, my analogy between golf and climbing was about the risk involved, not the physical asspect of the course or route. It's about eliminating risk/ danger on routes, which is a very crutial part of the allure of climbing for me. It's the risk/reward of climbing (also big wave surf) which draws me to these activities. The real threat of injury/death is what seperates these activities from golf or tennis. The magic of being scared, over coming your fears, and accomplishing something that you were not sure you could do is what it is about for me. For some it may be about the gymnastic asspect of climbing done in a safe environment and thats cool. If that's the case then put up your own routes,TR, climb in a gym or stick to exsisting well protected climbs. Why put your mark on someone's work? Would you re-write Charles Dickens to make it easier to read? Cheers, Paul Linaweaver
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
Don't diss Golf risk. 3000 people die golfing every year! Far more than climbing!
Retro-bolting is like using the cart instead of walking (sorta)
http://www.videojug.com/interview/death-by-leisure-activities
"How likely am I to die on the golf course?
Most people wouldn't think of golf as a dangerous sport, but in fact over 3000 people a year die on the golf course by playing the game. Most of these occur to people over 65 years old. The most deadly for this age group, and for many age groups, is the 3rd and the 18th hole. The reason for this is by the time they get to the third hole, they're now experiencing some hidden health problem that they didn't realize, or they pushed themselves all the way to the end at the 18 hole and have a heart attack or some other fatal mishap right at the end. So the other interesting thing is that over six people die a year from lightning strikes by watching tournaments or falling limbs. These things can be prevented if you keep one eye on the game and one eye on what's going on around you."
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
Kudos to Warbler's post, which I suggest he repost in it's own thread. We should all be observing that as the real environmental (and Access) issue.
Find the best path to an FA and use the same path each time, don't cut the corners on the way back down. The approach and descent are part of what an FA team is creating. Own it
Peace
Karl
|
|
east side underground
climber
Hilton crk,ca
|
|
Karl, how many folks golf in the US? How many climb? It would be fun to know the" relative" risk compared between these activties. Cheers
|
|
JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
|
|
Great post, Kevin, and it shows a great person behind the ideas. Your explicit thought of how what you do affects those who come later contrasts rather starkly with most of what I read, and, sad to say, much of what I see. Thanks much.
Now that I understand East Side Underground's meaning, I agree with him. Golf might lead to death or serious injury, but it doesn't involve conquering the same fears as that involved in climbing. I, too, was attracted to climbing not only for its physical challenges, but also, if not primarily, for the mental ones.
Truth be told, though, there is a certain amount of fear one must overcome to play golf for money. Sinking a six-foot putt on the 18th when there's a substantial bet riding on it leads to its own, if different, sort of fright. Mostly, though, my golfing involves a large amount of controlling anger.
John
|
|
FRUMY
Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
|
|
Where is Weld_it? He would know what to do --- F'n Grid bolt the f-c- out of everything.
That way the weak of mind can't complain.
There are sooooooo many GREAT climbs that don't have any bolts.
|
|
the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
|
|
Wow lots of replies to this weak and often repeated troll that sounds like it's from rec.climbing circa 1999.
|
|
DataMind
Social climber
|
|
It seems to me the FA party dictate how a given route is to be climbed. If they used or didn't use bolts, if they did it ground up or top down, trundled or left loose blocks, etc. Some climbs in my opinion need more tlc than others whether it be removal of blocks and/or dead vegetation or ensuring adequate protection. Some route can kill a FAist if it were not inspected and cleaned prior. But most of this development is restricted to crags which are easily accessible. Large walls often don’t afford such luxuries. The climbers that engage big stuff ground up are assuming a much bolder level of risk than one would on a established route. I believe that different types of rock as well as the size and approach factor in to how well protected a climb is. Different circumstances require different tactics to summit. Whats more throw in different personalities and of course you will see a gambit of strategies and end results. And the intentions of the FAist should be respected, whether or not they decide to adequately protect the route. It's is bad form to retrobolt, but by that logic it is bad form to chop as well. We all know there is more rock out there than can be climbed. Let exisitng routes remain as they are or let the few people intimately tied to it determine its fate. But the first generation doesn't own the wall by any means. I believe you should climb routes that are in your comfort level, develop new routes as you see fit, but understand that your routes will be a reflection of you and bolting does not go unnoticed so use them sparingly. In the end, drilling holes in a wall is just as "traditional" as and other type of protection as folks have been doing it for over a century.
|
|
Eric Beck
Sport climber
Bishop, California
|
|
many retro-bolters will not find the runouts on Snake Dike acceptable
I'm one of the FA party on Snake Dike, who has done it 6 times. It is perfectly okay with me for someone to add more bolts. I'd like to see a total of 4 bolts on each of the dike pitches.
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
Karl, how many folks golf in the US? How many climb?
Depends on whether you're talking about trad or sport golfers.
The climbing numbers are only speculation. A lot of people don't want their employers or the police to know they are involved in climbing activity. Keep it mum
PEace
karl
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
I bet Eric couldn't even get away with retro-bolting Snake Dike even though it was already retrobolted and those bolts stayed.
It's all the quirks of the community.
Sorta like the Gay Marraige debate (trying to protect the traditional) except everyone is married to what changes on the stone
Peace
karl
|
|
Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
|
|
Eric Beck....best run it by Bridwell first as well.....
|
|
couchmaster
climber
pdx
|
|
LOL, Beck for the win....or the left turn...either way:-) The plot thickens.
I think you'd be voted off the island if anyone put any bolts in Snake Dike. Great route as is....but there is that comment....
|
|
Roughster
Sport climber
Vacaville, CA
|
|
I guess the Snake Dike discussion is a good example of the ridiculousness of the FA'ist rule to be honest given Jim's involvement with Dry Falls.
Before anyone thinks I am slandering Jim, my point is that ethics and style change both at the community level, but also at the individual level. So when an FA'ist has a change of heart, many years later after initially establishing a climb, it is "sometimes" ok to add bolts, but in the case of Snake Dike it wouldn't be?
Is there any better example of why this element of the climbing community "ethics" really is in need of being looked at?
|
|
Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
|
|
Karl makes some good points, I think that should he venture on to a golf course, Donini, would more likely die there, than climbing.
Probably why he's avoided it! I think.........
|
|
Prod
Trad climber
|
|
I predict that Donini would suck at golf.
Prod.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!