Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2012 - 01:54pm PT
|
a hole, is a hole, is a hole. I have in the past drilled holes for a hook (two), for copper heads (10), and for rivets. I know now 1/2 of those placements could have been done without the bit touching the stone which years later would make me happier, I feel I cheated like mastrae
how many holes per pitch filled or not on look out danger and the new route?
Also, little comment about jeremy's lead on weird science from the second ascent team- why?
If it is so cool you need to adopt tha merican rating system of 5.9 A.2+ or the NTB,YDFS grades.
|
|
madboIter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 17, 2012 - 04:23pm PT
|
Long post warning!
I really, really don't have time for this. So, I'll try to "sum up" in this one post. I've put the annotated original topo on my blog today. I've also (finally) put up my detailed topo of the route. I'm putting links here rather than bringing in the actual images, because they are quite large.
Annotated original topo: http://www.conclusivesystems.com/danger/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/danger_topo_annotated.jpg
My finalized topo: http://www.conclusivesystems.com/danger/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/danger_topo_mine.jpg
Beyond this, I don't have much to say. I hope to find more time to "finish off" the blog with more pics as soon as possible. But at present I just don't have the time.
So, here goes....
You never really know what's coming up until you reach it. You could bail, thinking you've done the botch-job crux only to discover, years later, that a genuinely hard, cool pitch lay up ahead.
Yeah, that's exactly right, and that was indeed the struggle going through my mind the whole way. And the top two pitches are indeed a crack system. Had more of the route been "natural," we could instead be debating the "drilling ratios" or some such thing. But, aside from the top two pitches, the FA team put drill to "stone" on virtually every placement.
What would I have done?
I ask myself the same thing. Knowing what I now know, I would not have even started the route. Knowing what I now know, I probably would not have continued. But, I couldn't know then what I know now. And only a complete SA could really tell the whole story.
Hard to say. I'd be very, very reluctant to start drilling during a second ascent. That would seem poor style; I'd have a real hard time justifying that to myself. I might have borrowed my wife's astronomical telescope to really study the beast (that telescope's no stranger to the Fishers). I might, if sufficiently intrigued, have scurried up the Finger of Fate then rappelled the line to really probe around with hammer and knifeblade or two and see what was in store.
All good ideas. I actually employed the "scope" idea. I spent hours with a high-powered scope and with an 18mp camera with long lens. I made a detailed strip map of high-res pics and studied it carefully, trying to match up what the FA team's topo shows with features on the strip map. Part of why I call the original topo "useless" is that they show precious little in the way of "features," and vertical lines drawn on a topo do not correlate with cracks or even with the direction they went. With the topo and a strip-map, you see virtually no correlation!
The biggest problem with knowing anything from the ground is that you can scope out what looks to be a crack, only to get there and find that it is nothing but a bottomed ripple with no crack at all. Even scoping at different times of the day to see the "cracks" in different shading does not let you know if there is a pecker seam there or nothing. There is literally no way to tell what you're going to get until it's right in your face. And the wall is so corrugated that you often cannot see even 100 feet above you with any reliability. The net effect is that you just can't know what's "up there" until you get up there. And "cracks" on that side of the Titan apparently typically are not. "Features" are not what you hope, and no scope or strip map is going to reveal that.
Rapping the route would have left the FA team the option of claiming (as they are even now trying to float): "Well, you didn't STAND on our placements. Bottom line is that until you STAND on everything we did, you can't know how to rate the route. Just looking at the route from the security of rappel does not tell you the story." On and on. And I fully expected a CLIMB! So, it literally didn't occur to me to bail and rap the route. I'm a "ground up" guy, and I just don't think in "rap the route" terms.
Rapping the route would also be of less value than you might think. The thing hangs with mud, and the features are tiny and fragile. To know that a potential placement would work, you'd have to try it. And you'd often have to clear away mud to even "see" what to try. In short, the "rap" of the route would amount to a LOT of very concerted effort to see if a "route" even COULD go through there. And at that point some would be upset that I "hacked" the "rock" during the rap just to see what would go. This stuff is NOTHING like El Cap granite!
Finally, from the ground, the first pitch looks pretty fearsome. My close friends and family will attest to the fact that I did not take the A6+ rating as "pure hype" or anything like that. I mean, I was pretty sure that the fact the FA team based their rating on the fabled "A6" of Intifada meant that they were very confused about actual American ratings. But I expected A5, which on that "rock" is plenty! I went up there believing it would be a hard route, and I was prepared to die on it. Now, in retrospect, that sounds ridiculously grandiose. But I didn't have retrospect at that time. I expected the route to be hard, but I also expected to significantly down-rate it. I mean, A6+? I didn't expect to find THAT. But, bottom line is that all the way up I kept waiting for "the other shoe to drop," and I had to get ALL the way up to find out that there was no "other shoe."
At this point, in retrospect, it's easy to say that I should not have kept going. That's certainly a reasonable perspective, and I won't argue against it. As I said, I'm not happy with what I had to do to get all the way up it. I just kept thinking, "Surely they didn't drill ALL the way up! Surely there's more to this route than JUST a line of holes!" But, the fact is that it's basically a line of holes. No way to know that until getting ALL the way up.
So, in one sense I'm sorry for all the drilling. In another sense, in order to know the truth, either you had to go up there with a lumberyard or with hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of euro-bashies... neither of which you're going to know in advance. Or, you had to retro-fit the route, which is what I did.
In America we simply don't drill wooden pegs and call it good. The fact remains that what I left behind is repeatable (for anybody that would... gag... care to), and I did it with about 1/3 the number of holes of the FA team. A hole IS a hole! All the debate after that concerns what you put IN the hole. What I put in the holes makes sense and will last. What the FA team put in the holes (apparently) requires you to bring up a lumberyard for each ascent, and it's not sustainable on that "rock." The FA team drilled hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of holes (more than 50 in just their first pitch). What I did was retro-fit the route. I shouldn't apologize for there being a route there in the first place.
IMHO no route should have been put there in the first place. And, had I known then what I know now, I would have left it alone to fade into obscurity and be covered by mud. But that would have left the FA team the basis to keep hyping the route as "the hardest aid climb in the world." And with no SA, there was no debunking the claims. The SA required retro-fitting. And I felt the need to go ALL the way up to fully KNOW the WHOLE story. And I would have "always wondered" had I bailed at any point. Again, I'm not happy with what needed to be done to KNOW the WHOLE story. And there's NO "glory" to me for being the one to discover the whole story.
I don't get paid to climb, and I get no "glory" for this SA. What was in it for me? In retrospect, nothing but the experience of "gearing up" for a route like that (mentally and physically). I went up there honestly prepared to die (even A4 in the Fishers is the real deal). But it was nothing but a slog. Just a giant waste of my resources.
So, it's easy now, in retrospect, to question my retro-fitting. I won't debate it beyond what I've just said. I made a choice, and it's easy to argue that it was a bad choice. I won't argue it beyond what I've just said. Everything is easy to "parse out" in retrospect. The route IS basically a bolt ladder. At least MY bolt ladder is an honest one (and with FAR fewer holes than the FA).
**
Now to the "Rivet hanger" comments....
Pelut's new route on Kingfisher will need more than 60 peckers for the 1rst pitch.
LOL.... Well, probably only if you plant them 18-inches apart, which seems to be the limit of Palut's reach, as seen on "Look Out...."
perhaps instead of peckers you'll need just bolts
LOL... Well, only if he trenched and drilled, as seen on "Look Out...." He certainly used a tiny fraction of the peckers he COULD have on "Look Out...." I planted good peckers many, many times IN his trenches (trenched into usable seams) and to easily bypass many of his drilled bashies! Of course, I can reach almost six feet between placements on that angle of rock, while Pelut seemed limited to no more than about 2 feet, with 18-inches between placements being most common.
a thing that seems scary for Jensen
You're joking. Right?
I just wanna add that Pelut urgently wrote to Jensen's blog to contact him during his last summer stage in the Towers (everybody can see it in the blog) and strangely God Jensen didn't dare to answer (not ubiquity gift for Richy!). He knows why, but bolting a route and ignoring the authors of this route when they are there, say much about this superhero and all the exploits he claims have done...
"God Jensen?" Wow... get over yourself.
Pelut posted a few times, never "urgently," and I quickly responded. The site was supposed to email me when comments came in, and it had been doing that. I don't know why in August it stopped, but I didn't get notified of any incoming comments in August. This thread is the first I've known of Pelut's comments in August. And I just got on and responded to them.
It's of note that comments in August (a MONTH after the SA was completed) would have been no help. All Pelut had to say in those August comments was sarcasm about what a glory-hound I am. And even your comments about my "superhero" status are quite laughable. If I have any reputation as a climber, to my knowledge "superhero" is not a feature of it. LOL
You seem to take umbrage at me saying anything at all about my past climbs. Unlike Pelut, I don't make a living climbing, nor does my "life" revolve around it at all. So, it would be a legitimate question in the international climbing community: "Who is this guy who thinks he has the stones to even attempt 'the hardest aid climb in the world'? Is he even qualified to judge such a route? CAN he even climb it without bringing it down to his level?" I've said a bit about that on the blog simply to answer such questions. I have some acquaintance with routes that have been called hard, including, ironically, Intifada. That does not make me a "superhero." All it makes me is qualified to evaluate what Pelut did on "Look Out...." And, if anything, my retro-fit of the route UPGRADES it rather than brings it down. It started out as far "down" as it could be.
I did not at ANY point "ignore the authors." I responded quickly even while on the route. And my failure to respond in August just denotes the FACT of how busy I've been and how little I've even thought about the SA since completing it. So, if you want to debate "facts" about my responsiveness, there they are. I haven't been "following" this thread or even my own blog since about early July. The fact that "the authors" of the route and some of their fanboys are now all amped up about my debunking of their hype does not put upon me corresponding pressure to respond with equal "urgency."
Well, since my point of view it's more congruent with Jensen's style saying "goofballs" to the FA team, bolting a route he had not opened, claiming the topo is completely useless and ignoring the First Ascenders meeting request to talk about everything in the web page he has created "ex profeso" to make known his epic SA... Ego problems?
But perhaps, the saddest thing is seeing the Fisher Towers aid climbing communtity applauding his truth and ridiculing the FA team just because they are from Catalonia (it's not exactly Spain!). Beyer's route name in Kingfisher was Death of American Democracy, wasn't it?
Perhaps "goofballs" was a bit harsh. That was a "heat of the moment" response resulting from staring at the biggest BOTCH JOB in climbing history. I mean, WHO ELSE in climbing history has literally drilled hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of holes up a fairly short tower (as "big walls" go) and then called it "the hardest aid climb in the world?" Pelut says (I quote): "The A6+ is not a proposal. I have the experience of Intifada, which is A6." Uhhh... Intifada was NEVER A6, and had Pelut bothered to get in touch with even a BIT of American climbing history, he would have quickly found out that Intifada was NO STANDARD by which to judge either ratings or style! So, yes, facing an EPIC BOTCH, I did employ a pejorative term. To do over again, I would have tried to calm down a bit first. But I only barely "back off" on this point, because what Pelut did on the Titan was GOOFY and a BOTCH.
And, technically, I did not "bolt a route I had not opened." I retro-fitted an ALREADY TOTALLY DRILLED "route!" And my retro-fitting employed about 1/3 the number of holes employed by the FA team. The FA team drilled a hole-ladder virtually bottom to top, and then hyped their style by proudly stating: "Only 33 mini bolts used for progression on pitches." What a joke! Saying "only 33 mini bolts" and emphasizing on the topo "the wall" as if it was THE blank section paints a TOTALLY different picture from what is really there! It's almost ALL blank. The "features" are almost all bottomed, so Pelut had to trench even his heads. And have I mentioned that there are hundreds and hundreds of BIG, DEEP holes drilled into blank stone? Why fill most of these holes with bashies and wooden pegs instead of a bolt? There is ONLY one reason: TO be able to make the hyped claims about the style of the route.
Pelut treats these countless, massive holes as though they are somehow "legitimate," while "mini bolts" are a problem that must be minimized! And YOU treat these placements as though they are somehow "precarious" and thereby legitimate climbing! They are neither precarious nor legitimate! Many of his bashies could not even be jerked out of the holes... that's how "precarious" they were! And the ones he could jerk out blew out the edges of the holes in most cases, leaving for any SA team holes that were not close to as good as what he used, and leaving useless flairs in MANY cases! You call THAT legitimate??? You call THAT even "climbing?"
Forgive me for my heat, but I'm outraged! That is not even CLIMBING! It was not "hard," and it left a "route" that was not even repeatable without a lot of additional drilling! Facing these blown-out flairs and blown-out trenches, what's the SA team supposed to do? Drill the holes deeper? "Sharpen up" the edges again? It's ALL drilling! The whole "route" is purely manufactured! It's ABOUT drilling! So, don't bash me for "bolting a route I had not opened." The state in which the FA team left the "route" demanded that the SA would do much more drilling. I was NOT going to just further drill out those ridiculous bashie holes. And I was NOT going to legitimize drilled-bashie anchors! I left an HONEST route, stripped of ALL the hype. The "route" IS and only EVER WAS a BOLT LADDER.
Repeat after me until you understand it: A hole is a hole is a hole is a hole is a hole. A trench is a hole is a hole is a hole is a hole. A drilled bashie is a hole is a hole is a hole. A drilled wooden peg is a hole is a hole is a hole is a hole. When you can grasp this principle, you will have grasped what we Americans think about aid climbing and aid climbing ratings in America. Use the FEATURES of the ROCK as much as possible, and CALL a hole a "hole" when you report what you did. DON'T drill for virtually EVERY placement and then CLAIM: "Only 33 mini bolts used...."
"Ego problems?" I'm stumped. WHAT ego-stroking could I possibly get from this botch??? The FA was a botch. The SA was nothing but a retro-fitting of a botch. There's nothing "worthy" in EITHER ascent! The ONLY reason I pushed the SA through was to eliminate ANY possibility of misjudging the route. I'm not proud of the SA. I just feel like somebody needed to do it. And, unlike Pelut, I don't get paid to climb. I have no "ego" nor financial stake in this game! I am not motivated by my "career" to keep putting up "bad-ass" climbs with "bad-ass" ratings in order to further my "career." Climbing is a very different thing for me than it (apparently) is for Pelut. So, point your "ego" finger in some other direction.
And, if you'll take note, I have never bashed on the FA team "just because they are from Catalonia" (let's not get into the technicalities of whether Catalonia is "not exactly Spain"). I "bashed" on the FA team because they drilled a bashie ladder up the Titan and then called it "the hardest aid climb in the world." To be really crisp and clear about this, I'm not even "bashing" on Esther, because I'm guessing that she didn't lead a pitch. As basically a "belay slave" she had little to do with the style of the leads. Pelut is the one responsible for the pitches and the hype surrounding the route. And Pelut's reputation is what's on the line here. Whatever he did before, and whatever he does after, the FACT remains that Pelut drilled a bashie/peg ladder up the Titan and hyped it as the hardest thing in the world. And THAT is what he has to account for in this context.
I'm happy that the climbing community "applauds truth." And it's not "my truth." It's THE truth. We want to know the truth, and I reported the truth. That truth debunks Pelut's hype about the route, and it is no "ridicule" to simply report the truth, which is all I've done.
Yes! From July 6th to August 15th, Mr. God Jensen doesn't answer, and from August 4th to 15th, Pelut is pressing for having a beer together and talk about the new bolted route because he was opening a new route in Kingfisher and making the SA of Weird Science...
Perhaps he had no internet access but, oh surprise, in August 7th, Mr. Jensen wrote a post in Supertopo!
And all these are objective facts!
Oh man, what's wrong with Richy?
Again, I did answer in June and July. And Pelut was not pressing for a meeting or anything like that. I was ON the thing until early July, btw; and his August comments on the blog contributed NOTHING to the ascent. Having read them, I see nothing that demanded my response. His comments appear to be so sarcastic that he could not have seriously believed that they "urgently" needed a response.
"What's wrong with Richy" is that he's unhappy with being forced to retro-fit an ENTIRE route just to find out the truth of it! I expected a CLIMB, and there was no CLIMB there.
So, let me end this with as much clarity as I can muster....
What Pelut SHOULD have done, to be totally honest about his tactics, was to build a 1000-foot high wooden ladder, lean it up against the Titan, and then step back proudly to say: "Look at what I have done! Oh, and it's really, really hard. It's the hardest thing EVER done! It is SO much harder than even your hardest, Intifada, that no existing rating can contain my awesomeness. MY ladder needs a whole new rating to describe how 'precarious' it is to stand on the (often precarious) rungs of my wooden ladder. True, my ladder really doesn't even TOUCH the rock, except at the top. I really don't USE the ROCK at all. It's really just a big wooden ladder! But it's a HARD wooden ladder, and it IS 'on' the Titan because it's leaning against it."
Something like that would have at least been HONEST! It's not "climbing," but at least it's honest.
|
|
goatboy smellz
climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2012 - 06:20pm PT
|
SIZZLE!
|
|
Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2012 - 06:25pm PT
|
Madbolter, tell us what you relly think! HaHaHa! Nicely done sir!
Candid, balanced, and well written - you're on the wrong website.
OK, and slightly pejorative. ;-)
|
|
rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2012 - 08:23pm PT
|
This all goes back to drilling.
RJ,there are a lot of holes on your topo which does not follow the original line in the middle.
To all, When anyone of you goes up on Time Machine (Glacier Point-9 o'clock wall) without a bolt kit and without heads and repeats it, then you might know what hard aid climbing is. Bob S. wanted a route that people could not question style thus he stepped out to do something (in 1984) without a chisel or a drill. Beyer's resume is badly tarnished from Intifada and some other escapades, but Shoenard's remains intact.
no chisel, no bolt kit.
ready, set, go.
|
|
chill
climber
between the flat part and the blue wobbly thing
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2012 - 08:38pm PT
|
Wow! This is going to be "Wings of Steel II, The Return of The Sh*tters".
|
|
Gagner
climber
Boulder
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2012 - 10:15pm PT
|
This makes me sick to my stomach.
The Fisher Towers are a fragile place - one could legitimately argue that all climbing alters the stone/mud. I've certainly done my part over the years. But, drilling holes, whether for rivets, bolts, heads, bashies, or dowels - is still drilling a hole, and should be documented as such.
Here are a few comments -
1. What was the intent of using wood dowels, and then breaking them off? If this is true, then the route wasn't done in a sustainable, or repeatable manner. If this is not true then will someone please bear some light on this. I'm really curious about this practice because, while I know wood dowels have been used over the years, why would someone break them off, or saw them off, so they are unusable but future parties.
2. I have on several occasions over the years started a new route, only to discover that what I was gunning for was unusable - I bailed, not satisfied or willing to drill massive ladders. Jeremy and I bailed off a new route on the back side of the Oracle earlier this year when the seam we were gunning for on the 2nd pitch turned out to be blank.
3. To assert that the uproar here has to do with where someone hails from is silly. Great new routes, put up in good style are welcome by anyone, from anywhere.
4. As has been said up-thread, a hole is a hole is a hole. I rarely comment on rumor and speculation, but I've looked at Richard's photos, which seems to tell a story of a lot of holes, for pitches on end, and then the holes in some instances were destroyed and made unusable so a repeat ascent would be unrealistic. If this assessment is wrong, please tell a different story.
5. The seeming lack of honesty is sad. How could a ladder of holes really seriously be considered A6+, or A3 for that matter.? Why only state rivet holes, but not other major holes where the drill was put to rock? Climbing has always been a "sport" guided by passion and honesty. I believe this to be true no matter what side of the pond you are on.
As I said at the beginning - this makes me sick, and sad. There is a finite amount of rock. Let's be respectful and honest about our routes.
Paul
|
|
Da_Dweeb
climber
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2012 - 10:21pm PT
|
Hey, yeah! If a picture is worth a thousand words, ten or so could stand in for Richard's next post...
|
|
crunch
Social climber
CO
|
|
|
Sep 18, 2012 - 12:59am PT
|
Hey Rivet dude, or Pullet, or Esther, can you please post some photographs of the equipment (gear) wassa right word, doohickies, thingumies; the copper and wood and lead (plomo, cobre...., devices, that were used on Danger.....fotografía!!!!
We're struggling here to understand exactly what you have done.
It it is alleged (presunto) by Jensen that you used a drill 18 inches times 900 feet, about 600 times.That would be seiscientos, comprendez? Yes? No?
Jensen, completamente loco, has drilled even more, or so he says. About 1/3 more, for a grand total of about 800 holes. OCHO CIEN. Saltando Jesús en la cruzar!
You all should be taken out and shot (pena de muerte, pronto). No hay excepciones.....
I mean, ¿qué coño
Mi aerodeslizador es ful de anguilas......grrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!
|
|
Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
|
|
|
Sep 18, 2012 - 01:20am PT
|
Mi aerodeslizador es ful de anguilas......grrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!
Which is definitely not the way to climb desert towers. Lampreys are just too squishy to provide reliable protection no matter how hard you hammer them into the holes you've drilled.
|
|
madboIter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 18, 2012 - 02:59am PT
|
It it is alleged (presunto) by Jensen that you used a drill 18 inches times 900 feet
No, that's a bit much. I wouldn't say that the average was 18 inches. The average was probably more like 28.33538 inches. Pelut got as much as 3-feet between holes at times (rarely, even 4). And it's probably not 900 feet either. Probably more like 700, taking the top two pitches and the odd natural sections into account. That revised combination of numbers knocks literally hundreds of holes off of the estimate. So, probably "taken out back and shot" is a just a wee bit harsh. Maybe just taken out back and have a lamprey or two attached for a few hours, or something like that. Let the eels have their revenge.
|
|
Da_Dweeb
climber
|
|
|
Sep 18, 2012 - 04:06am PT
|
And perhaps submit a report to the Ministry of Silly Rock Climbing...
|
|
GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
|
|
|
Sep 18, 2012 - 09:33am PT
|
This thread pretty much puts the nail in the coffin for any desire I once had to climb hard aid.
The terms mountains out of molehills arises, oddly enough. I understand some people really love it (bless 'em for it), and the Fishers is a fragile place and any kind of impact should be looked at.
But seriously, this is rock climbing????
Do you guys know there are Stadiums that will pay you hundreds of dollars an hour to basically nail the same sh#t, only on Steel framing instead of mud????
And to think of how much sh#t Boulderers get on this forum... lol.
|
|
GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
|
|
|
Sep 18, 2012 - 11:27am PT
|
Go slut it up elsewhere dude.
|
|
Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
|
|
Sep 18, 2012 - 11:29am PT
|
GDavis, maybe that was a parody? ;-)
|
|
GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
|
|
|
Sep 18, 2012 - 11:39am PT
|
He's been hawking around at a few threads, actually I have nothing wrong with what he is doing, just saw an opportunity to make a joke, lol.
I also don't find any fault with hard aid, again... an opportunity to make fun of something came up. Like I can pass those!
|
|
GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
|
|
|
Sep 18, 2012 - 04:11pm PT
|
Sorry Jer, they went over to mountainproject.
|
|
Da_Dweeb
climber
|
|
|
Sep 18, 2012 - 05:35pm PT
|
Aye? I'd be interested in hearing what you mean, Ron.
|
|
Da_Dweeb
climber
|
|
|
Sep 18, 2012 - 05:42pm PT
|
Oh, I see. Thank you.
|
|
rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
|
|
|
Sep 18, 2012 - 08:05pm PT
|
topo request (bump)
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!